Some extracts from the Constituent Assembly Debates on Dharma
Sir S. Radhakrishnan (United Provinces: General):
We cannot attain purity, we cannot gain our goal of truth, unless we walk in the path of virtue. The Asoka’s wheel represents to us the wheel of the Law, the wheel Dharma. Truth can be gained only by the pursuit of the path of Dharma, by the practice of virtue. Truth,-Satya, Dharma-Virtue, these ought to be the controlling principles of all those who work under this Flag. It also tells us that the Dharma is something which is perpetually moving. If this country has suffered in the recent past, it is due to our resistance to change. There are ever so many challenges hurled at us and if we have not got the courage and the strength to move along with the times, we will be left behind. There are ever so many institutions which are worked into our social fabric like caste and untouchability. Unless these things are scrapped we cannot say that we either seek truth or practise virtue. This wheel which is a rotating thing, which is a perpetually revolving thing, indicates to us that there is death in stagnation. There is life in movement. Our Dharma is Sanatana, eternal, not in the sense that it is a fixed deposit but in the sense that it is perpetually changing. Its uninterrupted continuity is its Sanatana character. So even with regard to our social conditions it is essential for us to move forward.? The red, the orange, the Bhagwa colour represents the spirit of renunciation it is said:
(Sarve tyage rajadharmesu drsta). All forms of renunciation are to be embodied in Raja Dharma. Philosophers must be Kings. Our leaders must be disinterested. They must be dedicated spirits.’ They must be people who are imbued with the spirit of renunciation which that saffron, colour has transmitted to us from the beginning of our history. That stands for the fact that the World belongs not to the wealthy, not to the prosperous but to the meek andthe humble, the dedicated and the detached.? That spirit of detachment that spirit of renunciation is represented by the orange
Shri H. V. Kamath: I only want one or two more minutes,Sir. The Fundamental Rights could be suspended in the eventof an emergency and that means that the power of the HighCourt can be taken away. It is a dangerous provision to makein the Constitution. If I remember aright, even during thelast world war, the British Government did not suspend theright of the citizen tomove the appropriate courts to issue writs of haebeas corpusand so on. I do not know whether we should go one better,rather one worse, than the British Government ….. Now, what is a State for? The utility of a State has to be judged from its effect on the common man’s welfare. The ultimate conflict that has to be resolved is this: whetherthe individual is for the State or the State for theindividual……
India of the ages is not dead nor has she spoken herlast creative word; she lives and has still something to dofor herself and for the human family. And that which is nowawake in India is not, I hope, an Anglicized or Europeanized Oriental people, docile pupil of the West and doomed torepeat the cycle of the Occident’s success and failure, butstill the ancient invincible Shakti recovering Her deepestSelf, lifting Her head higher towards the supreme source oflight and strength, and turning to discover the completemeaning and a vaster form of Her Dharma. In that faith andfortified by that conviction, let us march forward into thefuture, and by the grace of God, victory will crown ourefforts
Thursday, the 24th November, 1949
Shri Brajeshwar Prasad: …
If India is to remain loyal to her ancient traditions she must discard the basic foundations of this Constitution. Dharma was the basis of all Governments in ancient India. If the will of ignorant and hungry people were ever to become the basis of government in India, it will mean the complete liquidation of all that is good and noble in Indian life. The common man has got no will of his own. He is a bundle of instincts and a creature of environment and heredity. His will can never be the basis of modern Governments in any part of the world and especially in India where he suffers from innumerable handicaps. The concept of Dharma incorporates all that is good and noble in Parliamentarianism and rejects the evils that have crept into it. A State based on Dharma will never tolerate economic inequality or social injustice. But it will never accord recognition to popular will as the basis of Government. For the will of man is nasty, brutish and short. Dharma is in consonance with the fundamental principles of Democracy. The will to will the general will is the core of democracy.
Shri Har Govind Pant (United provinces : General):
According to the ancient order the primary aim of human life is the achievement of four Vargas. I need not say what place has been given to Dharma in our Constitution. When Dharma itself occupies a dubious place, it is all the more unnecessary to speak of Moksha. As for the remaining to Vargas, i.e. Artha and Kama, they have been properly provided for in the Constitution and everyone has been granted an equal right of their achievement. Ancient India accepted that man can achieve his good in both the worlds only through Dharma. Shri Vyas Deva says:
‘madhvarvahu viroumyevah nahi kashshat chunotimam
dharmadiyarshcha kamashcha sa dharmahkinnasevyate’
(with raised arm I declare it, but no one listen to me, that Dharma, Artha and Kama can be achieved through Dharma. Why not follow it?)
The happiness of all and the interests of society can be promoted only by following the path of Dharma. If we foresake it and go our own way, we cannot make the nation or the individual happy.
Shri H. V. Kamath (C. P. & Berar: General):
Sir, let me not be misunderstood. When I say that a State should not identify itself with any particular religion, I do not mean to say that a State should be anti-religious or irreligious. We have certainly declared that India would bea secular State. But to my mind a secular state is neither a God-less State nor an irreligious nor an anti-religiousState.)
Now, Sir, coming to the real meaning of this word`religion’, I assert that `Dharma‘ in the most comprehensive sense should be interpreted to mean the true values of religion or of the spirit. `Dharma‘, which we have adopted in the crest or the seal of our Constituent Assembly and which you will find on the printed proceedings of our debates: (“Dharma Chakra pravartanaya”)–that spirit, Sir,to my mind, should be inclucated in the citizens of the Indian Union. If honourable Members will care to go just outside this Assembly hall and look at the dome above, they will see a sloka in Sanskrit:
“Na
sa Sabha yatra na santi vriddha
Vriddha na te ye na vadanti dharmam.”
That `Dharma‘, Sir, must be our religion. `Dharma‘ ofwhich the poet has said.
Yenedam dharyate jagat (that by which this world is supported.)
That, Sir, which is embodied which is incorporated in the great sutras, the Mahavakyas of our religions, inSanskrit, in Hinduism, the Mahavakya `Aham Brahma Asmi’,then `Anal Haq’ in Sufism and `I and my Father are one’–in the Christian religion–these doctrines, Sir, if they are inculcated and practised to-day, will lead to the cessation of strife in the world. It is these which India has got to take up and teach, not merely to her own citizens, but to the world. It is the only way out for the spiritual malaise,in which the world is caught today, because the House will agree, I am sure, with what has been said by the Maha Yogi,Sri Aurobindo, in one of his famous books, where he says:
“The master idea that has governed the life, the culture, social ideals of the Indian people has been the seeking of man for his true, spiritual self and the use of life as a frame and means for that discovery and for man’s ascent from the ignorant natural into the spiritual existence.”
I am happy, Sir, to see in this Assembly today our learned scholar and philosopher, Prof. Radhakrishnan. He has been telling the world during the last two or three years that the malaise, the sickness of this world is at bottom spiritual and therefore, our duty, our mission, India’s mission comes into play
Saturday, the 19th November 1949
Dr. Raghu Vira (C.P. & Berar: General):
Whenever any nation, such as British in India sought to consolidate their rule by striking deeper the roots of their domination into the heart of the subject nation, struck at the very cultural bonds of that nation and thereby enfeebled it altogether. They take three steps to reach this objective-an attach on the language, an attack on the religion and an attack on the historic ideals of the subject nation. This was what England also did with us. It brought our religion into contempt. But I need not go here into the question of how it was done. But it is sufficient to say that they gave no place to religion in the sphere of the State. Moreover this significant word of the Sanskrit language was equated by them-the Englishmen and their camp bearers to religion which is much narrower and restricted than the former. The fact is that Dharma never meant and can never mean religion. I think the word Panthe may properly be translated as Religion but I do not think that Religion can ever be taken to connote Dharma. But the Englishmen made a deliberate use of this for their own ulterior purposes.
??? The Englishmen imposed their language on us in place of our language. In order that our language be restored its due place and the constitution be framed in it we felt necessary that all the things which the English people had deliberately destroyed in order to consolidate their rule here should be restored, so that our country may recover its soul again. But I say with regret that the word ‘Dharma’ does not find any mention in this Constitution. When I raised this point with a friend here he replied that the Constitution was a law and it could contain only those matters which could be subjects of interpretation in law courts. But, Sir, my submission is that this country is not eager to have new laws alone, it wants earnestly to rise to higher planes than that of the laws.
??? There was a time, Sir, when our country had glorious place of its own and had a Dharma of its own. At that time Sir, we were high in the scale of nations- as a matter of fact we were the teachers of the world. But the Englishmen reduced that glory of ours to dust and ashes. The Englishmen, specially the English members of the Indian Civil Service wrote histories of India in which they shoed our countrymen to have been primitive and insignificant, to have always been victims of division and dissension and to have always been defeated in battle. It was all the more necessary, that we should have made some effort to provide avenues for the expression and development of genius in the sphere of culture. But this has not been done. I think, Sir, that it was absolutely necessary for us to have put this glorious word in our Preamble. We have the phrase the glorious triplet of words-Liberty, Equality and Fraternity from the political slogans of the French Revolution, but it is my submission, Sir, that these words have or never had a revolutionary appeal in this country, and so far as I can judge these words would not be able to promote a revolution in this country. I do not suggest that we should not take anything from other countries. We can borrow from other countries but only those things which are likely to prove of use for our country. But when we could give a place to these three words in our Constitution, could we not have given a place also to some of the ancient words of our own country. Could we not for example use the expression Ram Rajya in this Constitution-an expression which even our children in villages understand and appreciate. Again we have in our literature the expression ‘Matsya Nyaya’ which suggests that the bigger fish should not swallow a smaller fish. It was a duty laid on the King that the rich should not be permitted to exploit the poor-that is to say there should not be exploitation of the people, nor the exploitation of the poor by the rich nor even the exploitation of the weak by the strong. But this significant word Matsya Nyaya-this ancient word which has come down to us since thousand of years-which connotes all these has not found a place in our Constituion. I may refer here to a suggestion which I made during the course of my conversation with the President of the League of Nations which I visited to in the year 1931. I told him that the motto of the League of Nations should be ‘Ma Gradhat’ (do not even ‘Ma Gradhat‘ (do not covet) which is to be found in the Ishopanished and the Yajur-Veda. But such expressions and others which stand for ideals regarding the conduct and spiritual upliftment of men and which satisfy their physical and spiritual needs do not find and place in this Constitution. This country was the originator of the Republican system of government. Again it was this country which spread this system to the other parts of the world. Besides it had the biggest democratic organisation which was engaged in a system propagation of a new ideal. Its principal mottos were ‘Dharma Sharnam Gacchaimi’ (I submit to the commands of Dharma) and ‘Sangham Sharnam Gachhami’ (I surrender myself to the Samgha or Order). These in effect that I dedicate myself to my duty and that I shall not and cannot run away from it. I ask ‘should not such a motto have been included in the Constitution of this country?” It is my submission that this motto is to be found in our country from the Rigvedic time down to the present age. I feel that we have suffered from the malady of division and dissensions-the malady of internecine conflicts. I think that it is regrettable that in view of this malady the ideal of San Gachaodhwam ‘Sam Baddivam San Vo Manausi Jantam’ march together bound together are consciousness of Jantam has not been placed before us here. Another ideals we find in the assertion of King Ashwapati. He said.
namaste no janpade nakadaryo namadyapah nana hitagni no vidwanah
??? (transliterated into Roman script from Devanagari)
which means that there is not thief or robber, no coward, and no drunkard nor any ignorant person in my State. But these ideals do not find any place in our Constitution. I therefore ask you, Sir, whether the mere fact that a statement is made in Hindi or in our language robes it of dignity and gravity, when we say in Hindi that two plus two are equal to four we lose their mathematical significance and we can retain the mathematical significance by expressing this idea in English. If not I fail to see why we could not have expressed in our language the ideals which we have put in this constitution in terms of English language, of an alien history and a foreign syntax.
??? There was another ideal, Sir, which was also followed in our country. It is contained in the verse which says:
??? tatra shriman bhaved dandaya sahasramiti dharana
???? (transliterated into Roman script from Devanagari)
It meant that where a common person could be fined for an offence one hundred Rupees a king or a rich person should be fined for the same offence one thousand Rupees. The offence committed by a rich man was thus decided by a fine which may be a hundred times or even one thousand times than that awarded on a common man. But I do not find any such thing in this Constitution. If the facts I place before you from the history of our country are not to your tastes you may not accept them. But I do ask that if Sir B.N. Rau our constitutional adviser could go to Ireland, Switzerland or America to find out how the people of those countries are running their governmental system, could you not find a single person in this who was well read in the political lore of this country who could have told you that this country has also something to contribute, that there was a political philosophy in this country which had permeated the entire being of the people of this country and which could be used beneficially in preparing a constitution for India. It is a matter of deep regret to me that this aspect of thought was not considered at all by us
Monday, the 20th January, 1947
Sir S. Radhakrishnan (United Provinces: General):
Much has been said about the sovereignty of the people. We have held that the ultimate sovereignty rests with the moral law, with the conscience of humanity. People as well as kings are subordinate to that. Dharma, righteousness, is the king of kings.
Dharmam Kshatrasya Kshatram.
It is the ruler of both the people and the rulers themselves. It is the sovereignty of the law which we have asserted. The Princes–I count many of them amongst my personal friends–have agreed with the Cabinet Statement and wished to take their share in the future development of this country, and I do hope that they will realise that it is their duty to take notice of the surging hopes of their peoples and make themselves responsible. If they do so, they will play a notable part in the shaping of our country. We have no -ill-will towards the Princes. The assertion of republicanism, the assertion of the sovereignty of the people, do not in any manner indicate any antagonism to the Princely rule itself. They do not refer to the present facts of past history of the Indian States but they indicate the future aspirations of the peoples of the States.
?
Filed under: Constituent Assembly, Dharma-debates
Thanks for pointing out to the thoughts of founding father.
We are far removed from them by systemetic manipulation of marxist talibans who have infiltrated to our universities, media thanks to Indira Gandhi.
When history will be written, Indira will be squarely blamed for not only destroying our industry, but also our intellectual heritage.
Much grounds to recover in the future.
Yossarin…
Great thoughts aint it!
Thanks for the refresher course, however, these golden thoughts dont matter any longer in the current scenario.
These gents were “dedicated spirits” and the current lot in the parliament is unmentionable.
The point is will Dharma be followed by our CURRENT LEADERS??? BJP included???
NO ways Jiggs.
The current lot including BJP will not follow even one bit of this and that is the harsh reality. I guess we need to be practical on this aspect and see who is the lesser evil and who will protect our culture from disappearing into history books if no steps are taken soon.
that was a good post covering dharma. Now exercise to the class – apply what you learnt from this speech to the reported quotes of Ratan Tata related to Singur -
http://specials.rediff.com/money/2008/aug/22slde2.htm
“We want to understand why Tatas are unwanted in West Bengal. I hope West Bengal does not get characterised as a troubled spot in India,” he said
So your businessman controlling the largest companies in the country will declare a state ‘troubled spot’ if he does not get a few hundred acres land for free from the hungry, illiterate and unwashed masses.
It is predictable and easy to start on the politician in topics like this. But it may be a good idea to look around some more, at who you call your lawyers, businessmen, journalists as well and see the smell of that all-pervading s*it.
Shri Brajeshwar Prasad said -
“A State based on Dharma will never tolerate economic inequality or social injustice. But it will never accord recognition to popular will as the basis of Government. For the will of man is nasty, brutish and short.”
very undemocratic, and very true.
simply amazing ! i never knew that such learned people were part of our politicl system unlike the present lot.
It is really very enlightening!
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/central-school-plucks-lotus-off-logo-sparks-row/72352-3.html
Hey Guys…
Maybe BJP is following DHARMA:
“BJP to give tickets only to honest workers ”
http://timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=14710
^^^^ link to the above article in yesterdays IHT
Monks rally in Seoul against alleged discrimination
The Associated Press
Published: August 27, 2008
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/27/asia/skorea.php
Jiggs ..this is all eyewash…anyways right now the main issue facing us is a systamatic plan by the UPA to break up the country. We should be worried about it more .
There are rumors in the media world that this Azaadi slogan being raised by all sorts of sundry jobless dim witted donkeys is a trial balloon floated by the government to gauge the reaction of the public and it seems the feedback has been very positive as per the media circles. They tell me everyday they are getting countless mails from people in all walks of life who say let go of kashmir. On Monday, a highlevel meeting took place between the top brass of IB , RAW and home ministry officals where they have decided to give this plan a real fillip. They plan to involve other more prominent intelletuals who will give their voice in favor of freedom.
Can someone here in this forum give ideas of how we can stop this diabolical plan ?
G, let some time pass under the bridge. by december end , we will know who stands where, if assembly elections to the 5 are held as schedule.
last december end, namo gave the psecs a thrashing. this time it shall not be too different .hopefully the azaadi baloon will be deflated after that . forever!
Awesome!
The founding fathers knew their stuff. The non-macaulyites among them shine through, through and through. The uber-macaulayite – JL Nehru – though is thunderously silent.
May be of interest. It is simply wonderful book.
Read and profit from it life-long and educate others.
–
Dharma – The Global Ethic
by Justice M. Rama Jois
This is a scholarly monograph on the concept of Dharma, the basic note of the Hindu religion. The concepts of Dharma, Karma, Bramha constitute the tripod of Sanatana Dharma (Hindu Dharma), which is Anadi (beginningless), Anantha(endless), and therefore Sanatana(eternal, everlasting). With its rich connotations, Dharma is not translatable to any other language. This article is written by Sri Rama Joise. He deals with this subject thoroughly, using the explanations given in from the Vedas, the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, the Manusmurti, the Arthashastra, the Hitopadesha and the Rajatarangini.
You may download the book (PDF):
http://www.vhp-america.org/ebooks/
Why do we need change in the original logo in KVS? Rising Sun and a blooming Lotus flower was symbolising nature and shining light/knowledge. Lotus flower was the most adorable object with Bhagavan Buddha. Does honorable Union Minister and his anti-Hindu Italian master can change their original mothers with a new mothers? One can see, it is 100% political move by the Congress, to de-Hindunise and de-Bharatise everything.
Beware from anti-Hindu CNN-IBN channel: I saw few feedbacks by readers (bottom of the article), who criticised the move and Arjun Singh. Very quickly, IBN deleted all the feedbacks.
—–
Central school plucks lotus off logo, sparks row
New Delhi: An innocuous little change is threatening to snowball into a full-fledged political controversy.
The largest chain of primary and secondary schools in India run by the government, the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) has decided to modify its logo.
The only problem is the lotus – the BJP election symbol and also a flower associated with Goddess Saraswati – has been replaced by a globe.
The saffron brigade is crying foul. “This shows lack of rationale. Does this mean Nehru was irrational?” asks former Human Resource Development minister Murli Manohar Joshi.
A survey earlier this year included KVS among the top 50 brands in schools in major cities across the country.
In some cities they have been ranked much above premier institutes like the IITs.
The decision to modify the logo of this top Government brand was taken earlier this year in a meeting of the KVS board of governors headed by HRD Minister Arjun Singh.
Last month, all the 980 schools were informed about making required changes in the logo to reflect “broader national ethos and advances in science and technology”.
The KVS denies political intentions in designing the new logo.
“There is no politics behind it. We are going global as we have three KVS abroad, so the change has been undertaken,” says KVS Joint Director (administration), Pragya Richa Srivastava.
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/central-school-plucks-lotus-off-logo-sparks-row/72352-3.html
So in spite of having so many scholar nationalists Indians, Gandhi chose that brown sahib to lead India who loved Edwina, Britain, Russia and Secularism in that order. By this single step Gandhi undid all his good works he did for India.
G,
This is worrisome. We need to mobilize fast to stop this propaganda. Literally go house to house to form public opinion. It is now do or die
Though I’ve the greatest respect for a scholar like Dr. Radhakrishnan, I somehow can’t agree with the simplistic translation of Dharma as virtue. Because that is almost akin to looking at Dharma through “Christian” lenses and ultimately it’s all a fight between “good” vs. “evil”. Again that’s too simplistic in my judgement.
I think all this confusion arises because people still have trouble in defining what Hinduism (if at all such a construct exists which I think it does) is? I mean, is it a religion? Is it a philosophy? Is it just a way of life? Or is it a culture that permeates throughout India? I think it is the last one and it is in that aspect when RSS says we need to have a “Hindu” rashtra.
“In some cities they have been ranked much above premier institutes like the IITs”
Are you jus trolling? How can anyone even compare a high school and an engineering college let alone ranking them?
@Arvind: I am no authority to criticise Shri Radhakrishnan. But I felt (after reading some of his writings), Shri Radhakrishnan was moulded more by the christian thought than Vedic/Hindu thought. His writings on Indian philosophy are more from western point of view than Vedic/Hindu point of view.
Read some of his writings, esp his book- Indian Philosophy. Everybody wanted favors, rewards, and chairs from British masters, Shri Radhakrishnan was no exception. And they were the scholars with apologetic tone all the time, as they could not counter the onslaught of western colonial writers.
Even today, we have a section who write in apologetic tones, as they don’t want to offend their western masters and Indian sickulars with truth. It is our job to write truth and bring truth before the world.
Read this site: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/index.htm
The leaders of the Anglo-Indian war of 1857 understood “Dharma” and Indian polity. Shortly after the initial successes of Operation Red Lotus, an independent government was established by the leaders.
Over a hundred hitherto untranslated Urdu and Bundeli letters written to Tatya Tope during the early weeks of 1858 provide an insight into creative elements of the War of 1857.
These elements were articulated in a Proclamation of Freedom made by the leaders of the War on August 25, 1857 – that demonstrated what Freedom really meant.
They indicted the English rule on five counts and offered a fair Government that would remove the interference in trade, manufacturing and importantly personal choices.
The leaders of 1857 presented a road map that showed the way for India to truly unshackle the chains of foreign domination. The ideas that were presented were relevant even during 1947.
The choices made after 1947 demonstrated a complete deviation from Indic polity and a lack of understanding of what makes India a forever nation.
The sacrifice and perseverance of the leaders of 1857 represent the timeless, but yet perpetually fresh ideas. The oldest of them, but perhaps decadent to some, was the idea to defend and fight for your freedom.
Great ideas and traditions do not have expiry dates; they remain new and fresh for eternity. The following words capture these exact thoughts: ?????? ??????????
from an upcoming book
Tatya Tope’s Operation Red Lotus
by Parag Tope and the Tope family
to be Published by Rupa & Co.
First it was christain groups from all over India condemning orissa episode, then it was Pope from Vatican and now we have Italians shouting.
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/italy-govt-to-summon-indian-envoy-over-orissa-attacks/72380-3.html
Gujjuman,
Remember just couple of months back, when US published a note on human rights violation in Nandigram, CPIMafiaso and Sikulars burst into wild anger that it was an ‘internal matter of India’.
But now I see a complete silence from them. A classic example of what happens when the head of a nation is weak and clueless.
gujjuman,
are the italians friggin kidding ? they passed a law recently asking all gypsy-roma children to be fingerprinted, children ! These gypsies have been genetically proven to have been seperated from the Indian sub continent centuries ago, have been persecuted forever in italy, and they have the nerve to question us ? besides these are indian christians, how the hell does that become Italy’s problem? did ms miano put them up to this? this is totally unacceptable.
Italy starts controversial plan to fingerprint Gypsies, including children
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/03/news/Italy-Fingerprinting-Gypsies.php
Hi Yossarin,
Have u gone thro. the oped in The New Indian Express
by R.Vaidyanathan – a professor in IIM – B
An Excellent take on the Psecs.
“Stop the humbug called Kashmir is Hurt”
It is fashionable for the bleeding heart liberals (BHL) in India to talk out of turn and use POTA (Pulled out of thin hair) data to justify their rantings.They fail to recognise the thin line between being a liberal and subversive and often forget the English word callede democracy.The lumpen liberals like that one book wonder Arundhati Roy (who proudly proclaimed in the USA a couple of months ago that she has ceded from India since India is not a democracy) need not bother us since we need some infinite degree algebraic brainlesss wonders in our political discourse to have some buffoonery.But when the other BHLs like Vir Sanghvi and Swaminathan Aiyar and P B mehta talk about Kashmir and say ‘kashmir is hurt’ we need to sit back and wonder what is happening.The first two even suggest a plebiscite in kashmir about their choices due to their hurt.
Why are Kashmiris hurt?The first reason given is that polls were mostly rigged in J&K(not just in K)except the recent one where the screaming Mehbooba’s scheming father (Mufti Sayeed) could become chief minister.This argument is specious since the first candidate to cede from India on this ground should be Bihar since time immeorial polls were rigged in that state.
just glance at the newspapers of the seventies and Eighties.Then you will find in every poll the maximum number of people have been killed in that state.What about Bengal?Jyoti Basu could not have lost Baranagar to a CPI candidate but for rigging by Sidhartha Ray’s Juba Congress boys.Now in every poll CPM indulges in scientific rigging according to its opponents.The Dalits of western UP will tell horror stories of rigging by Jats till the arrival of seshan and BSP in that order.So are the dalits in Tamil Nadu.But none of these states are encouraged to cede from india by the BHLs.
In spite of the fact that some polls might have been rigged in J&K we should recognise that our general elections are different from that of Pakistan where generals get always ‘elected’.Do the “hurt” Kashmiris really prefer generals getting elected or general elections?It is for all of us to discuss.But interestingly or intriguingly every chief minister of Kashmir after 1947 is a Muslim.This is inspite of the fact that J&K has a population of nearly 10 million and one third of that is Hindus,according to the 2001 census.Andhra Pradesh with less than five percent Christians has currently a Christian CM.
The second issue of their hurt is regarding their socio-economic condition.In every indicator J&K stands in the top rung of all states.
Some of the indicators are:
1.per capita Consumption of Electricity at 795 KWH (2006-2007) is much higher than in UP,MP,Rajasthan,Bihar.WB etc.(Rajya Sabha Question No.2908-21-04-08)
2.Per Capita Central assistance at Rs.2860(in 2000) much higher than all states:with TN at Rs.260 and UP at 385 and WB at 426 and all India figure of Rs.395.If at all; the rest of India should be hurt about it.Even total assistance of Rs.2631 crore in 2000 is the highest among s tates.(rajya Sabha Qtn No. 1370 dated 03-08-2008).
3.State-wise per capita availability of Milk in India (2005 – 2006) at 353 gms per day for J&K is much higher than most of the states with all-india average at 241 gms per day.(Rajya Sabha Qtn. 1801 dated 11-08-2006)
4.State-wise per capita allocation for Agriculture and Rural development (2002-2003) at Rs.305 (Rs.245 and Rs.60)is much higher than most states including TN at Rs.188 and AP at Rs.125,Maharashtra at Rs.202(leave alone BIMARU states)with all india average at Rs.152(Loksabha Qtn. 4659 dated 23-04-03)
5.Statewise per capita expenditure (current and capital)on health in India in 2001 at Rs.363 is much higher than most states with TN at 170,AP at 146,UP at 83 and WB at 206 and a national average of 167.(Rajya Sabha Qtn no.756 dated 28-07-2003)
6.Statewise average monthly per capita consumption expenditure of farmers in India in 2003 at Rs.712 for J&K is the third highest in India next to punjab at Rs.828 and Haryana at Rs.741 with national average being Rs.502(Rajyasabha Qtn 1759 dated 08-12-2005)
The distribution of households in terms of ownership dwellings at 94 percent is one of the highest in India(Table H-5 census of India-The State J&K – Census 2001)
We find that this state is among the top quartile or among the top percentile in every socio economic indicator.
The other major complaint is regarding owning land/property in Kashmir-in relation to Amarnath Board getting 40 acres with “usage rights” during the yatra season.
It is surprising that our investigative media has not explored the real estate in Bangalore/Mumbai/Hyderabad owned by the Kashmiri leaders like Sheikh/Omar Abdullah,Mufti sayed,Meghbooba Begum,Mirwazi,Yasin Malik,Geelani and various others taking extreme or moderate positions.
The mindless youngsters shouting azadi on the streets of Kashmir should be clear whether they would like to be part of India that is democratic and becoming a world power or want to be ruled by the army of pakistan to protect their religion from imagined crisis.
If it is the later then the road to Muzzafarabad can be opened for the willing to leave to the land of honey and milk.
As far as India is concerned,it shopuld conduct a referendum encompassing the entire country about the future of Kashmir and the need to keep Article 370.That is the only referendum we should think of.
The bleeding heart liberals should realise that they are subverting democracy and thin line between a liberal and terrorist is getting blurred.
Enough of this nonsense called “Kashmir is Hurt”.
Bharat,
Comment no. 18. Agree with you. Radhakrishnan’s interpretations of Hindu texts are exactly the same kind of scholarship which was displayed by so called India sympathetic European Indologists. While a superficial reading seemed to convey praise of these texts. A deeper and more subtle message gave it that these texts were a preparation to receive the yet to be revealed fuller truths. The legacy of Radhakrishnan has been carried forward by his son S. Gopal a historian of leftist leanings and a great admirer of Nehru.
Agree with Vikas#24
Quoting Sanskrit shlokas hardly makes you nationalistic.
Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan was the King George V Chair of Mental and Moral Science at the University of Calcutta in the 1920s. His “progressive” stance of imbuing “western idealism” into “eastern” philosophy earned him early rewards. He was the Spalding Professor of Eastern Religions and Ethics at Oxford University in the 1930s until he became Vice-president of India.
While there should always be room for honest introspection, the likes of “Sir” Radhakrishnan represents the class of Indian whip wielders that indulge in self-flagellation.
India is the only nation in the world that has constantly evolved its thoughts – always building on strong foundations. It is the only nation in the world that has demonstrated an evolving continuity in the process. India’s evolution does not need “western idealism” to progress. Early “progressive liberals” like Sir Radhakrishnan made themselves palatable to the Indian intelligentsia by showing strong knowledge of Indian history and philosophy.
It was never the knowledge or the aptitude of the Macaulayan fruits that was in doubt – it was their attitude towards Indic polity and understanding it.
By blaming India’s suffering on “resistance to change” Radhakrishnan insults all those who died fighting for India’s freedom – especially the likes of Tatya Tope and others during 1857. The leaders who truly understood what “Sarve tyage rajadharmesu drsta” meant.
I am disappointed to see Sir Radhakrishnan’s progressive liberal statements making it on the top of this blog.
For get the Dharma, Do we really have a government:
N.V.Subramanian (NewsInsight.net)
http://www.indiareacts.com/archivedebates/nat2.asp?recno=1715
Apparently so. Once in a while, a prime minister shows up, Manmohan Singh. Inaugurating some new course at an IIT in Assam, or launching a book, he mumbles something about preserving unity. His press advisors quickly work up the media to insert phoney muscularity into what he said, if he said anything at all. The press slavishly “reports” that the PM showed toughness hinting at whatever was the crisis of the day, which since May has resided in Jammu and Kashmir.
But is there any evidence that the PM has taken any initiative on the Amarnath land controversy, besides pleading with all the parties to do his job for him? And now, we are told by independent media reports that the government allowed the J and K situation to deteriorate to, in a sense, play off the Kashmiri separatists against the Jammu agitators, and put the blame for the erupting violence on the BJP and Sangha Parivar. Now that that has boomeranged, a crackdown has been ordered, licence followed by police firing, resulting in unacceptable civilian deaths.
Meanwhile, Pakistan has been stepping up LoC ceasefire violations since May, and yesterday, the Pakistan army successfully covered for terrorist infiltrators in J and K. All the Centre has for response is “warnings” to Pakistan not to violate the ceasefire. Why isn’t Pakistan taking the “warnings” seriously? One guess. It perceives the Manmohan Singh government to be weak, weaker, in fact, after it won the trust vote by defections arranged by Amar Singh & Co. True, the Pakistan army has never felt answerable to anyone in Pakistan save its own leadership. But it would embark on a course of LoC ceasefire violations and terrorist infiltrations based on its own cost-benefit analysis. It would certainly not squander an opportunity to up the ante against what it perceives to be a weak Indian government. And by allowing drift to uncontrolled violence in J and K, it has, after a fashion, invited small by growing Pakistani intervention. Unless the government orders a proportionate military response to Pakistani aggression, the Pakistan army will get bolder.
But J and K and the LoC are not the only places where the government is missing. Manmohan Singh is missing on an area apparently dear to his heart, which is economic management. Inflation rate for the week ended 9 August has accelerated to 12.6 per cent, a sixteen-year-high, and the RBI’s monetary measures have had no appreciable impact. Earlier this month, the buzz was that C.Rangarajan, who had resigned from the PM’s economic advisory council, and been nominated to the Rajya Sabha, was replacing P.Chidambaram as finance minister. But if there was any move to dump him, it was dropped. According to a senior business journalist, dropping Chidambaram would have proved that he had mismanaged the economy. And it would have appeared succumbing to pressure from Amar Singh, who had publicly wanted him gone for the inflation mess. In all this, the government seems scarily unperturbed about the crushing effect of inflation on people, and their certain show of wrath in the coming general elections.
Inflation, J and K, the bomb blasts in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Bangalore… as neglectful as it has been on all this, the government has focussed obsessively on the Indo-US nuclear deal, in which Americans and the rest of NSG are seeking far-reaching Indian concessions, concessions that would lead to closure of India’s military nuclear programme. It is incredible that the government is selling out on national security as if it’s never to face the nation and answer to it. And even if it be true that the nuclear deal has no traction with a large majority of voters, surely high inflation hurts everybody, but especially the poor and the middle class, and nobody will give mandate to a government that is soft on terrorism. General elections are months away, and unbelievably, no one in the government seems particularly worried at there being little to show. This is a government that not just not works. There is no government.
Comment # 18 by Bharat
“I am no authority to criticise Shri Radhakrishnan. But I felt (after reading some of his writings), Shri Radhakrishnan was moulded more by the christian thought than Vedic/Hindu thought.”
I am not worried about that. Because that gives an Indian’s perspective of how a Western mind interprets Hinduism. I think that is very very important to understand. Plus, in a free society I’m okay with views all across the spectrum. The problem arises only when certain people who profess to be unbiased air same-old cliched and on top of that wrong views and give importance to them instead of rendering them impotent like Arundhati’s, it gets on nerves.
“Read some of his writings, esp his book- Indian Philosophy. Everybody wanted favors, rewards, and chairs from British masters, Shri Radhakrishnan was no exception.”
Wow so are you SR was a British chamcha/stooge jus from reading his book? That’s a big leap of faith don’t ya think? On top of that, in the beginning you say that you are not fir to even criticize SR. You seem to be confused dude.
Comment #24 by vikas
“The legacy of Radhakrishnan has been carried forward by his son S. Gopal a historian of leftist leanings and a great admirer of Nehru.”
Judging a father by looking at his son is a cardinal sin. Don’t do it.
My own opinion:
Some people here want India to be completely isolated and shut off all moorings of “western culture” in India. This is a very very dangerous step. I agree that if India’s culture gets taken over completely by the West, it would be disastrous for India. But the answer to that is not isolation (that’s what the Taliban do and you won’t be any different from them from a strategic POV). The answer is you becoming a part of global system, gaining power, trying to spread the Indian culture and “converting” the West over. If your ideas have weight and if you market them well that should be possible. However if they don’t have weight or you can’t market them well then no point whining about it. Isolation spells doom for any nation state. Germany was isolated before WW1, USSR was isolated and collapsed in 1991 and we were isolated for first 45 years and was on the precipice of bankruptcy in 1991. China interestingly joined the global system pretty early in 1971 within 25 years of independence.
oops technically there was no independence of China. Should read “25 years of CCP coming to power”
Arvind
Friend I am definitely not a votary of “western culture” either. But discussing SR we were speaking about philosophy/theology. The main point of difference between Indian and western philosophical theories is that Indian theories seek better and better ways to harmonise the relationship between individual and society whereas the crux of most western philosophies is the resolution of conflict, which is thought to be inherent, between individual and his society there.
You seem to be terribly mixing up these philosophies with economic advancement. Let me tell you one thing that ultimately Hindu philosophy, of which you seem to hold some doubts >> “If your ideas have weight and if you market them well that should be possible. However if they don’t have weight or you can’t market them well then no point whining about it.”- is ultimately there to challenge this dialectical materialism (the forte of supposed western success) itself. All these fights which we are witnessing today are only precursors to that stage.
Parag,
>> While there should always be room for honest introspection, the likes of “Sir” Radhakrishnan represents the class of Indian whip wielders that indulge in self-flagellation.
>> India’s evolution does not need “western idealism” to progress. Early “progressive liberals” like Sir Radhakrishnan made themselves palatable to the Indian intelligentsia by showing strong knowledge of Indian history and philosophy.
Agree cent per cent.
Comment #27, Arvind:
I am neither confused nor any negative critics of Shri Radhakrishnan. I stated what I perceived from his works and commnetaries on him by other noted writers. It is no criticism. I admire him and learned many things from his original writings (books, papers). There is no question on his masterly work on Indian philosophy. One thing I totally disagree with him, that he simply stated the western version of Aryan Invasion Theory.
We must note, his was a different time, most of his writings under British India rule. Second, he had profound command on western philosophy, so his works on Indian philosophy reflects his western philosophic reflections.
Please read some of his writings, you will understand what I mean, perhaps you understand different than mine. I stated, what I grasped reading his writings and commentaries on him. Thats it.
===
Comment #29, Vikas,
>>whereas the crux of most western philosophies is the resolution of conflict, which is thought to be inherent, between individual and his society there.
Are you implying that individual wishes clash with society
in west ONLY?
If so, why?
There will always be conflict between individual wishes vs society.
I thought the only difference between india and west
was how the conflict is resolved.
Here, societal sanction is stressed and there individual choice
is given priority.
>>Indian theories seek better and better ways to harmonise the relationship between individual and society
The impression i get from this statement is
that there can be WIN-WIN solutions for such conflicts.
Interesting! can u cite examples?
>>Hindu philosophy is ultimately there to challenge this dialectical materialism (the forte of supposed western success)
Did u mean something like
Finally, west is going to realize the futility of relentless
material pursuit and then look eastward for spiritual comfort?
If not, pls ignore
the rest of the post.
Or else, i will tell u why i disagree with tat.
We are economically behind west NOT because our
philosophy asks us to lay less stress on making money.
It was just that west had more OPPORTUNITY than us. (thankfully
thats changing now). Thats it.
ON the other hand, just because the west happens to be richer
doesnt imply they dont appreciate other aspects of life,
be it art, culture, sports, spirituality …just about anything.
To summarize, spiritualism and materialsm need not be
mutually exclusive…if one knows where to draw the line.
So, if one day somebody wakes up to realize that all his life
he’s only been making money and now regrets never taking the time
for anything else…
that person could be sitting JUST ANYWHERE in the globe.
Nandini #32
Your argument is accurately premised in “modern” India.
“Modern” India in many ways has deviated both economically as well as socially from the times when this conflict (individual vs. society) was not relevant…
…the abstract point – if I am representing Vikas accurately – is that when you read Indic texts in their original context – it is easy to see that this conflict was indeed absent.
When and how did this change take place? That’s the part of history which needs a thorough analysis… however it can be done only when historians remove the lenses that are colored with biases that emerge from prejudiced foundations.
It is these prejudiced foundations that need redressal.
“I am neither confused nor any negative critics of Shri Radhakrishnan.”
But you said, precisely to quote you, everybody wanted favors, rewards, and chairs from British masters, SR was no exception. Do you have proof of that? That was what I took exception to. I also don’t believe it in AIT but I still respect SR for his views.
I think there is no harm in adapting and synthesizing great things from other culture to yours. In fact your culture becomes even stronger and grows. Again shutting off is not an option.
Do you have proof of that?
His western point of view writings itself a proof. I shall not go for a useless debate. I have my opinion, so have yours. Let we respect each others. No further reply.
===
Galeo Rhinus #33
>>…the abstract point – it is easy to see that this conflict was indeed absent
Can u kindly elaborate how that was achieved?
If you have any article/link/book in mind, i would be very much interested.
Galeo,
Yes your articulation indeed is what I sought to convey. Only you have done it more lucidly.
Nandini,
>>Can u kindly elaborate how that was achieved?
If you have any article/link/book in mind, i would be very much interested.
One book which immediately comes to my mind is “Concept of Rashtra” by C.P. Bhishikar. This is one of the six books expounding “Integral Humanism” by Deendayal Upadhyay.
>>Are you implying that individual wishes clash with society
in west ONLY?
If so, why?
There will always be conflict between individual wishes vs society.
You might get an answer to this query also in the same abovementioned book. As much as it may wonder you this conflict between the state and an individual was really absent in the ancient period. You will be surprised to know that there were periods in our history when no governments were there. “Na Rajyam na cha Rajaseet…” People were collectively regulating their affairs under the umbrella of “dharma”. This is an ideal state of affairs which Communists ostensibly wanted to achieve. Part of the reason for the absence of this individual-state conflict was that the state was not over archaic and “Dharma” with a strong emphasis on “lokmaryada” was the guiding force. Moreover all institutions of “Rajdharma” and “Swadharma” were already inculcating a spirit of harmony between individual and the state. Unfortunately in due course the institutions got rigid and conventionalized and became more important than the “dharma” which they were supposed to uphold. This resulted in a decay which could later be censured by Leftists as feudalism.
Vikas :
Thanks for the reference! Will look it up.
If i am summarizing you correctly, by
” NO GOVT” you meant that there was no legislative body ( like our parliament)
and instead of constitution, there was Dharma. Is that correct?
Well, that should work for most administrative issues like
fair allocation of work and wealth, dispensing justice for clear cut
violation of ethics like cheating, stealing etc.
But what about grey areas?
Like freedom of speech and expression? like following unconventional practices
eg polygamy/polyandry ?
How does Dharma deal with these? Where ( if at all) does it draw the line?
Nandini/Vikas,
Great discussion – a few comments.
Even if you eliminate the legislative portion of the government – i.e. creating laws that people abide by – there is an important portion of governance which is enforcing contracts. So if two people agree on something – and if there is a dispute – only then they can approach the government. Village panchayats were designed to do exactly that.
However – Vikas – you are on a slippery slope by confusing “Na Rajyam na cha Rajaseet…” with the attempted goals of the communists. Communism simply projects the idea of “rule of the people”… it is a facade that does not have any structural integrity.
While minimum government is well defined in terms of what raj dharma was.
Nandini – about freedom of speech… In Indic polity – where historically governments were nearly powerless in people’s personal freedom – it would have been impossible to restrict any individual freedom – let alone speech.
Unconventional practices – what you describe as “unconventional” became so when the English (and to some extent the Mughals/allies) wrote India’s laws that represented more rigid ideas.
Historically – these never came under the purview of any centralized doctrine or law. Villages/towns/regions made their own codes. Hindu law per se – was flexible enough to allow for changes with time and place. http://www.hindu.com/lr/2003/11/02/stories/2003110200290300.htm
Additionally – individuals could choose if they wanted to be in relationships that were governed under these laws. At a basic level – the rationale of a public ceremony in a marriage – was a contract between the couple and the society – with the intention of protecting the woman. However – a woman – at her own risk – could always choose the “gandharva vivah” which was with only “agni” as a witness – not society. I say at her own risk – because as some mythological stories reflect – in some cases – the husband broke the contract and played no role in rearing the children… these stories provided the women with examples that demonstrated choices and consequences… the choice remained with the couple – the woman in particular. Influenced by western puritanical ideas, “modern” India does not recognize Gandharva vivah… Today – a woman no longer has this choice – legally.
In fact many European couples are breaking away from their rigid laws as well (far less in the US) cMany ouples are choosing to be in a monogamous relationship – without getting legally married… basically a gandharva vivah.
Polyandry and polygamy – again – these never came under the purview of any centralized laws. Even today – in some Bhutia people (I think) fraternal polyandry is common (one woman – married to 2-3 brothers). If disputes occur – the village panchayat resolves them – not the Indian “legal” system – which would basically make these practices illegal.
Galeo,
I am acquainted with some Bhutia folk and they were aghast at your ployandry thesis.
IIRC, some tribes in Ladakh and the lahaul=Spiti region of Himachal used to practise polyandry. The Bhutias are based in Sikkim which is a long way from Ladakh-HP (unless you had free access to Tibet, that is….aaaah, thats a whole other story, I guess).
Galeo #39,
By unconventional practice – i meant precisely that.
Unconventional in the context of time when it was NOT convention.
So we could have societies where gandharva vivah ( or polyandry)
was/is accepted, but that does not necessarily make them more open.
simply because then THATS the convention.
>> Hindu law per se – was flexible enough to allow for changes with time and place. http://www.hindu.com/lr/2003/11/02/stories/2003110200290300.htm
I went through the link.
The review is of a critics analysis on ‘Hindu personal law’ (governing inheritance, marriage and divorce ONLY )
That kind of narrows down the scope of original discussion – individual freedom vs societial sanction.
Even so, i went through the article couple of times and if i am getting it right,
in the reviewers words the gist is-
‘Current Hindu law attach greater importance to top down legal regulation by the modern State than the self-regulatory potential of society itself. ‘
Thats something i dont like about that article – its repeated emphasis on what it calls “societys self regulation”.
Correct me if i am wrong, but a societies self regulation can be implemented only by “individuals self regultion”, is it not?
And a society which stresses too much on this “self regulation” cannot AFFORD to be an avowed votary of individual freedom…no?
Sud#40
Thanks for the correction… at least I got the himalayan connection correctly
apologies to any Bhutia people if I offended them 
Nandini#41
Again – if you consider the role of the government more as an enforcer of contracts and less as a legislator who creates and enforces laws then this paradox that you are facing will disappear.
The minute you think of government who creates and enforces laws – individual liberty automatically is restricted… for good or bad depends on the specific laws… however that is not a point of the discussion.
The premise of my argument is that absence of excessive laws does not represent anarchy… because system can exist when people break contracts – either with individuals or with society… these contracts will vary with place and time – but the ideas don’t change… some might incorrectly paraphrase this as a “self governing” society… which technically is a tautology because all societies are always self-governing…
One primary reason for this confusion is that modern discourse is dominated by western thought… which in turn is founded on the semitic religions whose holy texts were also legislative in nature (the ten commandments… Sharia law in the Koran etc.)
Indic thought and legal systems are radically different from these rigid ideas…
…India’s modern laws – first after the Islamic rule and later after the English – followed this pattern.
That brings us back to the quintessential point – that the struggle between an individual and society had little reason to exist – because Indic societies were far less obsessed with top down legislation than western ones…
…Modern Indian polity – unfortunately – does not represent these “old” ideas.
Perhaps you are being anachronistic and projecting what you see of India today into the past…
>> about conventional/uncoventional – please explain. I might be missing something here..
Here’s an example… the “polygamist compound” of Mormons in the state of Texas in the US was recently raided.. and the state was planning to take all the children forcefully away from their mothers… this is an example of top-down legislation… where the state unilaterally makes decisions of what is right and what isn’t.
Should the polyandry practicing families of ladakh be arrested under modern Indian law?
Galeo,
I agree that Communism is a facade and that is why I used the word “ostensibly”. In fact whenever critics used to question Communists for perpetuating the rule of a select elite over the Proletariats whereas Communism promised the dictatorship of the proles, the reply used to be that this is a precursor to an ideal stage where there should be no govt.( see Harold Laski) I am in no doubt that the Commies only wanted to perpetuate the tyranny of this murderous elite forever. However even this ideal stage which Communism sweared to herald in had already been achieved in ancient India.
Nandini,
>> But what about grey areas?
Like freedom of speech and expression? like following unconventional practices
eg polygamy/polyandry ?
Actually the advent of these ideas in western liberalism must also be realised in view of the historic record of the societies where these ideas germinated. The great Kings ( eg. The Romans) were great there because they held large empires under their sway with ruthless power, whereas greatness was attributed to Hindu kings for upholding the lofty ideals ( Vikramaditya for his justice, Harishchandra for philanthropy). It is under these repressive tyrannies that institutionalised ideas such as freedom of speech etc. were needed.
Also you seem to be greatly preoccupied with the idea of societal sanction versus individual choice. This is a classic question which has troubled generations of philosophers. However the question can never be clearly settled on any one side. I will quote Bertrand Russell, a champion of individualism himself for expounding the problems of pursuing any of the two exclusively. He says “Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers, ossification through too much discipline and reverence for tradition, on the one hand; on the other hand dissolution, or subjection to foreign conquest, through the growth of an individualism and personal independence that makes co-operation impossible.” It is true that a compromise is needed between the two. And that is what “Dharma” is is all about.
I would also like to speak on your misgiving about materialism and dialectical materialism being the same (#32). While materialism is an unbridled pursuit for worldly pleasures through acquisition of material comforts, dialectical materialism says that life philosophies/ ethics and morals change with the change in material conditions of a society. I leave it up to you to believe in this theory or not. But I would like to say one thing about materialism in Hindu concept. The Hindu concept does sanction or rather encourages the fulfilment of “Artha” and “Kama” but it does require these to be moderated by “Dharma” and all this as a prelude to attaining “Moksha” or the final self attainment.
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