So for all of us uncivil Indians and some of us masquerading as civil despite sporting camouflage fatigues, well there is good news (not of the gospel variety but close).
Our prayers have at last been answered.
We now know who make up India’s Civil Society.
So now that veil of secrecy has been lifted on India’s Civil Society, here is an open letter from Offstumped to these very “civil” Indians.
I understand some of you got together at Janahastakshep in New Delhi to discuss issues with a lot of “civility”.
It fills me with immense disappointment that you did not advertise this Janhastakshep – “intereference in other people’s affairs” wide enough.
You see I have been yearning for years to learn the ways of you “civil” people, especially how you have perfected this art of “intereference in other people’s affairs”.
It warmed my heart to learn that your “intereference in other people’s affairs” has institutional sanction when you referred to this
the Indian government has singularly failed to follow the recommendations of the Nitish Sengupta Committee (1996) which had proposed curtailment of the Amarnath Yatra to 30 days and restricting the number of yatris to one lakh.
Thats absolutely the most “civil” thing to do, to tell other people how long they can conduct their private affairs of faith and how many of them can conduct them at the same time in the same place.
You sirs and madame, have taken “civility” to new heights with this “interference in other people’s religious affairs”. I salute you.
But sirs and madame, it would be terribly uncivil of me if I dont celebrate your “civility” by highlighting your deepest contempt for those amongst who masquerade as “civil” while actually wearing camouflage fatigues.
repression is back in vogue with Indian troops singling out local leaders with arrests, beating, booking some under draconian Public Safety Act, and filing of more than 250 case
You sirs are the epitome of “Civil Society” for you have the courage to call the repressive Indian Military for what it really stands as you continue to enjoy the freedom of speech at their expense. That sirs and madame is the kind of sincerity “civil society” needs to put hypocrisy to shame.
But sirs and madame this very “civil” concern from you is most ennobling and has me at a loss for “civil” words of praise, I hope you will pardon my colorful french !#$%^&
In contrast ….agitators in Jammu, persons charged with various violent acts have been allowed to go scot-free
What can I say of your great vision that never fails to see the very “civil”
Massive and peaceful outpouring on the streets of Srinagar and elsewhere in Kashmir Valley
while always failing to mention the very “uncivil” and very violent protests in Jammu sporting the Indian Flag.
Thats just the kind of double standard we need to keep the “uncivil” hooligans far away from us India’s Civil Society.
I would be guilty of delinquency of the most “uncivil” variety if I did not thank each one of you, who spoke at the event on Janhastakshep – “interference in other people’s affairs”, by name
Arundhati Roy, Prem Shankar Jha, Javeed Naqvi, Sanjay Kak, Dr. Aparna CPI (ML) New Democracy, G.N. Saibaba? Revolutionary Democratic Front, Retd. Justice Rajinder Sachar People?s Union for Civil Liberties, Gautam Navlakha People’s Union for Democratic Rights, S.A.R. Gilani Committee for Release of Political Prisoners
You Sirs and Madam have distinguished yourselves globally as the first national Civil society that no qualms advocating against your own nation’s interests.
Kashmir Valley ought to be met with meaningful political dialogue, which ought to revolve around the right of self-determination of the people of Jammu and Kashmir.
Thats the pinnacle of “Civil” behavior, you cant beat intereference in an entire Nation’s affairs.
I salute you and hope to some day learn and practice the art of “interefering with other people’s affairs” as masterly as you do.
Your hypocritically
A very “uncivil” Aam Admi
Filed under: amarnath controversy, betrayal of aam admi
The most leftie of the leftists, and SAR geelani meet in one place – what do you expect?
but i can see it has hit you bad – the loss of cool is pretty evident – a jab at gospel, a poke at something else… reads too much like prudentindian’s normal frenzied posts – and sudden loss of punctuation which normally is in place.
pretty much how lefties react when they see a report of a togadia speech.
in the same smelly basket, all of you..
Ramu – self delusion is an acceptable mental condition in India’s civil soceity, so dream on my friend
Creatures like ramu are diligently doing right things by creating enough opposite pull. These creatures have Ill-conditioned brains, but they are doing their part in making the true facts on issues related to India stated in this blog more legitimate, authentic and believable. My friends who have recently learned the truths about political cults & communists owe much to secretions left by creatures like ramu. ramu, the enzymes you secrete on the blog are indeed helping newbies in discerning things properly. I think you are an expert in social psychology. Keep frothing out and thanks for helping the nation.
Here goes “Ramu” Dude with one of his typically smartass remarks
Given the distortion of public discourse in our country ,these loony leftists instead of being excoriated, get positioned has “eminent Intellectuals”,”thinkers”.Ideal state of affairs would have been were the fanatical fringe of any persuasion(left or right or liberal) should be ignored /ridiculed .But thanks to our left-liberal infsted media these alleged representatives of Civil society enjoy enormous mainstream respectability .Some of the worthies have tremendous clout in the current UPA dispensation.For instance Sachar is highly regarded by the UPA sarkar and his expertise used to engineering dangerous programs based on communal socialism
BTW-Didnt know that Suzanna Roy and Syed Geelani are hand in hand fighting for cause of Azad Kashmir ,cheered on by the eminent worthies of the civil society and left-liberals .LOL
I would like to ask the so called self-styled eminent intellectuals, thinkers, historians, right (or is it wrong, for I have seen most of them interfere for all wrong reasons – always against hindu interests) activists etc. etc. :-
1) Do they support creation of any state based upon a particular religion ?
2) If so what about the minorities ? What is the safeguard ? (We have seen the hindu population dwindling from 26% at the time of partition in Pakistan to roughly about 1.5% and in Bangladesh from over 30% to about 9.5% now.) Do they support the extermination of minorities ?
3) What is their stand on the minorities in Kashmir i.e. the hindu pandits who have been killed and hounded out of the Kashmir valley. Have they got any solution for the same? What is the safeguard they propose.
4) Do they support the wholesale destruction of temples of Kashmir valley?
5) What will be the fate of Jammu and Ladakh ?
6) There is insurgency in north-eastern states too. If the people want independence, do this “civil society” support such a demand ? What about the minorities there viz. Nagaland, Mizoram etc.,
7) What about rest of India ? Do these self-styled “civilised” people think that the rest of the Indian states can also ask for independence based on religions ? Would they agree to do a Pakistan and Bangladesh on the minorities in India too ?
8) Do they think anybody in a civil society has a right to do any treasonable act against the state just because there is right to free speech. I would especially ask the communist and the left variety which are the states where communist are or ruling or have ruled, such treasonable act is allowed or pardoned?
9)Demanding or supporting secessionism from the Indian Union is a treasonable act. Are you, the so called intellectuals or right activists or any such nomenclature you want for yourself, ashamed of supporting a theological state and at the same time always accusing the majority religions?
10) What is the reason ? We as the citizens of this country want to know? We are sure that the Kashmir insurgency is supported by Pakistan and ISI. Pakistan has made their intention very clear time and again. By supporting them, are you not playing into the hands of enemies? Are you on the pay of these anti-india organisations and states ?
Whatever you want to call yourselves whether civil right activists, intellectuals or thinkers you are in reality act always for the wrong reasons for the wrong persons and wrong causes and are just morons always thinking against the interest of our nation.
Yossarin: There is another report (not carried by Indian mainstream press) which is worse. OUR EMINENT HISTORIANS LIKE IRPHAN HABIB, RS SHARMA etc WHO WRITE OUR SCHOOL HISTORY BOOKS, signed a similar document.
Here you can read it from an Islamic Website:
http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008/sep/09/amarnath_deal_surrender_jammu_agitators_academicians.html
EVEN THE HINDU DID NOT CARRY THIS REPORT.
I got a whip of this report yesterday when I found its Bengali Version in the Ganashakti, the Bengali Daily of CPIM’s West Bengal State Committee.
http://bangla.ganashakti.co.in/shownews.php?w=854&h=1146&year=2008&month=9&date=10&page=7&dpn=177392
HERE, WORSE, THEY EVEN OPPOSED LAND GIVEN TO AMARNATH SHRINE BOARD.
These people are hand in glove with Jehadis, terrorists. Imagine the damage they done so far when they wrote history books for our schools.
HOWEVER, MAINSTREAM PRESS HAVE NOT CARRIED THEM SO FAR- BECAUSE PUBLIC REACTION WILL BE FURIOUS.
THIS IS A PLOY TO SAVE THESE “EMINENT” HISTORIANS, “INTELLECTUALS”.
Allegedly ‘Eminent’ historians/ sociopaths (oops, sociologists)/ journalists etc keep dropping each others’ names in their ‘work’ – e.g. Ramachandra Guha whose scholarly record is way too insignificant to justify the media play he gets on shows by the likes of Sourdesai, makes it a point to casually toss around the names of the likes of NYT’s Pankaj Mishra etc. They return the favor. And the charmed circle goes on.
The only way to break this logjam is to promote genuinely nationalist historians and commentators – a rare and precious commodity, IMHO. So hats off to Swapan Dasgupta, Chandan Mitra, Rajeev Srinivasan (who goes overboard sometimes), Francois Gautier, Sandhya Jain, Tarun Vijay etc.
So hats off to Swapan Dasgupta, Chandan Mitra, Rajeev Srinivasan (who goes overboard sometimes), Francois Gautier, Sandhya Jain, Tarun Vijay, Offstumped, everyone at nationalinterest. You guyz are gems.
Sud and Gujjuman: I agree. But we shd congratulate these Jehadi aka Psuedo fundoos for destroying Secularism. THEIR MASK HAS FALLEN OFF. SO MUCH SO, EVEN MAINSTREAM MEDIA DID NOT CARRY THEIR STATEMENTS.
Madhu Kishwar, a mainstream commentetor wrote this:
“The preference of large sections of the Muslim leadership and westernised Muslim intelligentsia for a Nehruvian brand of secularism has proved to be very harmful for Muslims in the long run. In the process they have rejected & ridiculed Gandhi’s approach to inter-community harmony largely because they are uneasy with his use of certain Hindu symbols. This has strengthened the feeling that the Muslim leadership is innately hostile to the Hindus who are rooted in their own faith and is comfortable only with westernised Hindus like Nehru who are contemptuous if their own culture, religion and people.”
And she is 200% correct.
THESE FUNDOOS ARE BORN ANTI-HINDU AND TRYING TO MASQUANDER AS SECULARISM. AND THANKFULLY NOW FULLY EXPOSED.
Thanks to news.google.com, we can track who is saying what (guess many already may be doing it).
I spend tons of time monitoring media like this with appropriate keywords like (say) Jammu when the uprising was taking place there.
HERE IS AN INTERESTING NEWS THAT WAS NOT CARRIED BY INDIAN MEDIA:
Pakistani Flag Hoisted in Kashmir University
http://newsblaze.com/story/20080813174109kash.nb/topstory.html
Raising pro-freedom, pro-Pakistan and anti-India slogans, the university students hoisted the Pakistani flag on the main gate of the university. They also removed the “Gandhi Bhavan” board in the campus and raised pro-freedom slogans. The board has been named after the Indian father of nation, Mahatama Gandhi.
The Pakistani flag was also hoisted on the office of Vice Chancellor’s Secretariat.
One of the university students was told over phone that the university is witnessing a total revolution with students virtually in control of the University.
Tathagat,friend, you are really great that you have enough patiences to read Ganashakti, which is full of propaganda of commies. Sometimes I try to look at Aajkal, that’s is also very difficult to read because twisting and omitting of news to suit their purpose.
Now a days, I am noticing similar things in Anandabazar and The telegraph. They also omitting and twisting the sentence to propagate the editorial thinking on free eceonomy and hindu hatred.
Malay: never under estimate enemy. Always read what they are saying. I make it a point that I must read CPIM’s Bengali Daily newspaper in detail.
It helps understand them better
-
Fundoos have infiltrated Bengali Newspapers. They are funded from Middle East as well.
But ask them in private- they all agree Hindutva is great. After all, Bing middle class knows what is partition and deeply engrained in Indian nationalism.
Malay: by the way you work in a storage company? don’t give ur personal details here?. I have a friend from my college who works in such a company.
Another master piece from Tarun Vijay to expose the Christian Missionary’s TRUE agenda…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3455424.cms
I feel we need to stop proselytism on 2 levels.
1. By making a strong law that can monitor such activities
2. By eradicating bad practises in our own culture/religion( discrimination based on “varnas” or cast, superstitions etc)
Very funny, in a sad way indeed, but great post nonetheless YossBoss!
These bleeding-heart pseudo-liberals emerged into the national conscience in early 80s with the advent of ‘civil-rights’ organisations like Peoples Union for Civil Liberties, of which one of the eminent pallbearers was retd. Supreme Court justice V M Tarkunde, who alongwith other ‘civilized’ gentry, namely that old f**t, peddler-of-porn, boozer-to-boot, Gandhi-Nehru dynasty lackey & hanger-on Khushwant Singh & his ‘candle holding @ Wagah border’ pal Kuldip Nayyar, use to go on ‘fact-finding’ missions in the hinterlands of Punjab during the Khalistaan movement, esp where police had killed a lot many terrorists – I am not gonna glorify them by calling those traitors as militants, as has been the trend since then – and indulge in ‘investigations’ & then hold press conferences issuing reports about so-called ‘police attrocities’.
These latter-day avatars are the illegitimate off-springs – in intellectual sense, not literal – of those guiding lights, and its no surprise then as to what their agenda has been, given their history as well as anathema for Hindus & their culture & beliefs. Although, given Khushwant Singh’s passion for anything Muslim,Pakistan or Urdu, it use to amaze me a lot to think that this was a person who had endured partition and still had a soft-spot for people who kicked his b**t and undisguised contempt & mockery for people, land,its cultures & values, which accorded them full-fledged status as citizens. I guess thats what happens when you are educated with a McCauley mindset & have too much of whisky, scotch & other sundry ‘spirits’ flowing in your veins, instead of the regular blood.
I agree with Tathagat above, these ‘Secular Jihadis and Civil Freeloaders’ are exposed now and with every passing day they are exposed further.
Most of these are ‘you scratch my balls and I scratch yours type, but for MSM nobody take them seriously. Their mutterings should be treated with the ‘contempt’ it deserve.
PI
“it use to amaze me a lot to think that this was a person who had endured partition and still had a soft-spot for people who kicked his b**t and undisguised contempt & mockery for people, land,its cultures & values, which accorded them full-fledged status as citizens. I guess thats what happens when you are educated with a McCauley mindset & have too much of whisky, scotch & other sundry ’spirits’ flowing in your veins, instead of the regular blood.” Well said Sootradhar.
In fact it is true that most of these Secular Quacks’ are those who witnessed partition violence. These people are either suffering from what is called “Stockholmes Syndrome” or are simply shit scared still.
PI.
Dear Yossarin
Please leave these Civilian INTELLECTUAL to gutter…..
I believe TODAY BIHAR requires our Attention as millions of People have bcome homeless…
JEETEGA BHARAT will bcome reality when WE together fight out the misery without taking any outside Support.
Make sure that BIHAR should not feel that they are not part of India and ALL NATIONALIST are today with BIHAR.
Let ‘em all go all the way overboard. More they do the same thing their credibility as whatever they claim them to be tumbles down.
Tathagata, No boss am not that Malay.
I do not have any problem to give my personal detalis to you, but not through open forum, like here. Ok I can tell that now I am in japan and will leave for country at the end of this month and staying in Modi’s land, Ahmedabad.
Yes, you are right. One should not think that enemy are weaker, especially commies. But Iprefer to read those propaganda, which I was listening throughout my student life.
http://clivecrook.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/democrats_must_learn_some_resp.php
We probably need a similar eye-opener for our ‘liberals’ who don’t value the opinion of anyone else.
Soory, mistake. Yes, you are right. One should not think that enemy are weaker, especially commies. But I prefer not to read those propaganda, which I was listening throughout my student life.
Whatever be the debate- facts should never be distorted:
1. either we agreed to a partition on communal grounds-in that case, at least the Kashmir Valley should have gone over to Pakistan.
2. we did not agree to a two nation theory which was basically propounded by Hindu and Muslim chauvinists, then India should have been the way it was supposed to be, an assembly of smaller nations forcibly put together by the British for their need to administer different territories.
3. we agreed to the fact that the ruler of independent territories could decide which side they wanted to go according to the terms of accession. It is here that the problem begins: In the case of Kashmir we said, Raja Hari Singh signed the accession deed to join India, but then what about Junagarh and Hyderabad- in both these places we sent the army to capture these territories, despite their leaders wanting the opposite. I have no issue with them being part of India, but what is the rule then? or is our government actually as lawless as it appears to be?
4. So far as Kashmir is concerned, till 1952 the Indian Parliament did not allow itself the right to enact laws on behalf of Kashmir, saying that India is only a custodian – not a ruler and then by 1994 the parliament passes a resolution saying that “Kashmir is an integral part of India”!! This is plain simple land grab, and if you seen the larger character of our Indian ruling class, you will notice that almost 80-90 % of our politicians – not only look like crooked property dealers – but are. They grab land, resources, money, business everywhere. The only way they can sustain this loot is by creating false divisions within our society in the name of caste, religion and communities. The truth is that if the people unite – their anger against all injustice is so strong that they will simply kill all of them. That is why politicians need to foment trouble in Punjab, the North East, Kashmir, Assam so that they can justify carrying all these armed guards with them and harass the public at will.
As educated members of our society we should try and inform ourselves about the loot and manipulations being done by the ruling classes, instead of being fooled by them.
If we decided to forcibly keep Kashmir, then we have no excuse to have fought against the British either, the British always claimed that left on their own Indian would return to the life of savages, and colonial rule is the only way to civilize us. Dont forget that one section of the people who were used the most by the British in their “divide and rule” campaign was Upper caste Hindus and Feudal lords (including Muslims) But it was more of the upper caste Hindu rulers, especially people like the Rajputs and Scindias and other princely estates who always fought on the side of the British AGAINST Indians. 1857 is a classic case in example; the British would have been kicked out of India, since Gujjars, Ahirs, Jats, Brahmins, lower castes and Muslims had united and fought against them, but our feudal lords sided with the British and we lost!! These same feudal lords/their later generations are the ones who are ruling us today!!
So much is made of Rajput and other valour against the Muslims (Rana Pratap, but why is their so much silence when it comes to the British? where was all this valour?? is it because this is a part of their history they
are ashamed of??
So if Kashmiri’s want independence, it is not a new call, if you read Kashmir’s history, you will find that their urge to independence goes back even further than the 17th Century when they were subjugated by the Afghans, then by the Sikhs and then finally by the installation of a Hindu king on a largely Muslim region.
As a person who has spent enough time in Kashmir as a journalist, I know that the Kashmiri struggle for Independence was never a Muslim-Hindu question, in fact the Hindus of Kashmir were always closer to the Kashmiri Muslims than to other Hindus in the rest of India and the same is for the Muslims. What we have to see is the game played by the ruling class parties. For more than 40 years not a shot was fired by any Kashmiri organization fighting for Independence, is a point no one will ever tell you. The anger only erupted after decades in 1989-1990 of being beaten, humiliated, kicked, raped and their elections manipulated that the Kashmiris picked up arms – to a man- Hindus and Muslims were out on the streets for Azaadi. Sensing the danger of a united Kashmir, the Indian Government set up their own mercenary militant groups who started targeting Hindus – to create a division in their ranks and also to make a fear psychosis among the Hindus that the Kashmiris Muslims are out to get them. Then came along Jagmohan who created an even further fear psychosis and convinced the Hindus to leave the Valley. what happened after that- all the beautiful homes of the Hindus were protected by their Muslim neighbors for years-TILL THE GOVERNMENT MOVED INTO THEM. YES IT IS CORRECT – MOST OF THE BUNGLOWS AND HOMES ARE OCCUPIED BY THE BSF, CRPF AND SENIOR GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONARIES, while it is being given to make as if the Muslims have occupied their homes.!!! and you all believed this nonsense…
The sad part is the ‘real’ civil society gets sidelined and discredited due the this false-flag operation mounted by the likes of treasonous anti-Indics in the name of civil liberties.
Uh-oh. Looks like another troll with a fake ‘normal-sounding name’ is trying to elicit reactions from folks here and derail the thread. The blatantly false propaganda it peddles in the name of ‘facts’ says it all. “GoI drove out the pandits, not their muslim neighbors; to occupy their property etc.” Yeah, right. And all those pandits still living in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi 18 yrs later are lying under sarkari pressure to cover up what we’ve been fed, I suppose?
What cr@pola. The quality of spin & sophistry amongst today’s trolls continues to plummet.
Anyway, back to topic, sorry for the diversion caused by humoring the troll…
Another thread derailed by a pinko trojan. Yoss, to reiterate my request, for the love of this blog, use the ban option more liberally. Vasudeva Kutumbakan outside the blog please.
“Civil” society!? Adolf Hitler would have been proud of this pro-Islamist, crypto-fascist gang. Note that the land-grabbing drama queen prominently figures in the list. I suspect that she’s hoping for a holiday home on the shores of Dal lake.
Thx Malay.
Hindu is a dirty word in voca of Indian Psuedos.
Pritish nandy, an Indian Xtian, wrote this in the Rediff:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/01nandy.htm
The Ugly H Word
Its this hostility to anything Hindu has emboldened these jehadi pampering psuedos.
These people are few of the best intellectuals India have today. Ms Roy doesn’t need any more introduction. Sanjay is my buddy. He makes good films. I remember that old brainless MM Joshi decided to give him an award for one of his films. What a pathetic way of winning the liberal seculars like us. Need to talk to Priyada about any Padma award or something for Sanjay now that he’s made Jashn-e-azadi for Kashmir freedom movement. His being Kashmiri made a huge impact for the film. Great work Sanjay!
@23: Hey Taquiyya Sachin: Like a pucca Jehadi, you never condemned mass murder of 500,000 Kashmiri Hindus.
Its people of India who are deciding the course of history. Yesterday, it was Jammu. Today its Orissa. And tomorrow it will be Assam and NE against Mulim infiltration.
Keep on babbling- nobody gives 2 hoots.
So much so, these statements find no place in maintream Indian media to protect these jehad friendly fundoos.
Pakistan was born in the Aligarh Muslim University.
Now, Aligarh started rewriting Indian History.
Its never allowed in any sane democratic country.
http://www.sabrang.com/
The site above, is run by an eminent Sickular Teesta Seetalbad or Feetalbad. There is a magazine called Communalism Combat. You should know what communal means in it, Hindu Combat. Hindu Combat and Anti-Hindu propagandas are the main agendas of the site and magazine. This eminent sickularist behave as controller of Bharat and its top courts. Sometime back, wrote a critical article on Supreme Court. Then Supreme Court had to warn that rascal not to interfare its work.
Sometime back, there was a map of India without J&K on front page of the site. When some patriots exposed it and wanted to go for legal course, that coward quickly removed it.
For one second I have mistaken this nandy for his brother Ashish Nandy.
@@33 Bharat:
Teesta Javed Khan Seetalbad (her full name) is a pro jehadi, anti-Hindu activist.
There are pages on Indian history there. I read those closely to UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE JEHADI MINDSET IS.
WHAT THESE JEHADI ACTIVISTS ARE DOING IS:
1. TRYING TO DIVIDE HINDUS ALONG CASTE. PIT ONE GROUP OF CASTE AGAINST ANOTHER.
AS WELL AS RALLY MUSLIMS RELIGIOUSLY.
As we have seen earlier (from the Tribune, Chandigarh report): THE JEHADI GOAL IS TO ACCENTUATE CASTE CONFLICT.
As long as Hindus remain divided, they can derived more politically.
Whether its Teesta, or SIMI, or terrorists- their goal is same.
A casteless united aggressive modern Hindu identity- Hindutva- is the medicine of these ills.
these psecs have been very successful, especially in creating a genuine hindu backlash, from gujurat, to ramsetu, to jammu, to now orissa. I’d say keep up the good work, and what we can do is to keep highlighting their ‘emminent work’ so as to awake the indolent yindu.
[...] First the India Civil Society [...]
The case against azadi for Kashmir
Sushant Sareen | September 11, 2008 | 18:20 IST
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/11guest1.htm
In recent weeks, a seditious assault has been launched on the will of the Indian nation by rootless liberals, ‘mobile republics’, and amoral columnists who are exhorting India to ‘think the unthinkable’ and concede the demand for azadi in Kashmir.
There are two ways of responding to those who advocate azadi for Kashmir. The first way is to gun them down, throw a grenade on their house, kidnap their children, threaten to rape their wives and daughters, or drive them forcibly out of their homes. This is precisely what was done to Kashmiris — Muslims and Pundits — who opposed the so-called ‘freedom-fighters’ in Kashmir, whose brief these faux-intellectuals hold. Of course, the moment any of these steps is taken, these same people will demand protection from the very law enforcement agencies that they so ardently revile. At the same time, there will be a manufactured uproar by the NGO industry over how voices of dissent are being stifled. Only, those shouting about their right to dissent seem to readily acquiesce when dissent is brutally throttled in Kashmir by the jihadists and separatists.
There is however a more civilised way of answering those who propose a vivisection of India. This is the way of an ‘argumentative Indian’, a way that is in keeping with the ‘Idea of India’.
As it stands, the Idea of India is good and noble. It is an idea that is progressive, inclusive, pluralistic, tolerant and accommodating. Above all it is a Republican idea which holds the ideal to be more important than the extant beliefs of the common herd. Compare the idea of India with the idea of a Talibanised Kashmir (as professed by the Geelanis, Salahuddins and their ilk), or even the idea of Pakistan — denominational, exclusivist, reactionary, intolerant and very violent. No doubt, there is a lot of prejudice and discrimination still present in India. But the task of nation-building in India is a ‘work-in-progress’. Countries like the US are over 200 years old and have not yet solved all their social and communal problems.
The important point is that the Idea of India must prevail over the idea of exclusivist and regressive states like Pakistan or its fan club in Kashmir. The campaigners for Kashmir’s azadi (especially those based in Delhi) should perhaps be sent on a year-long study tour of Waziristan, Swat and Bajaur (with a week in the Lashkar-e-Tayiba camp in Muridke thrown in as bonus) to make them understand why Kashmir cannot be abandoned for the Taliban and al Qaeda-inspired ‘freedom-fighters’.
The proponents of azadi and their apologists misuse, if not abuse, concepts like secularism and democracy that embody the Idea of India to undermine India. Frankly, India does not need certificates on democracy and secularism from anybody in the world, least of all from Kashmiri separatists and their supporters and sponsors who while mouthing these concepts are totally unfamiliar with the meaning, much less the practice, of these words. Nor does India need to amputate a part of herself simply to prove her commitment to democratic values.
Accepting azadi will mean subscribing to the doctrine of clash of civilisations, the fundamental assumption of which is that pluralistic societies are a quirk of history and will not be able to survive the assertion of primordial identities. This was exactly the logic that created Pakistan. It is hardly important that the bacon-loving Mohammed Ali Jinnah didn’t want a theocratic state; the Talibanisation of Pakistan is a logical outcome of the demand for a Muslim state. If today we accept that logic, then India will become a country only for Hindus.
The argument that granting azadi will be the democratic thing to do is even otherwise totally specious. What is it that prompts some people to give more weightage to what?five million Kashmiris want (assuming they all want azadi) than the desire of?one billion people who don’t want a communal division of India? How can we be so cavalier about the security, safety and well being of 165 million Indian Muslims for the sake of?five million Kashmiris? Secularism in India is bound to suffer if we accede to Muslim communalism in Kashmir. The forces that will be unleashed by another communal division will be beyond the control of armchair intellectuals. After all,? if we are willing to give one small part of the population the right to secede, how can we deny a larger population the right to decide who stays and who is forced to leave India? Perhaps the democratic urgings of the faux-intellectuals will be satisfied by nothing less than a billion ‘independent, mobile republics’ in India.
Other than Muslim exclusivism, what is the justification for the demand for azadi in Kashmir? Kashmiri separatists normally give three or four reasons in support of their demand. The first is that Kashmir was sold to the Dogra rulers by the British. But surely acquiring territory for a state by purchasing it is far more civilised and legitimate than military conquest. In any case, the cut-off point of history on which they base their case cannot be arbitrarily and self-servingly selected by the separatists. The second argument is that Kashmir is a disputed territory. Well, in South Asia a legal dispute can be created out of nothing at all, so this argument doesn’t hold any water. Thirdly, it is said that Kashmiris are a distinct and homogeneous ethnic group and as such are entitled to azadi. The answer to this is that every ethnic group in India is distinct and if this argument is to be extended then tomorrow a condominium complex in Gurgaon or cooperative society in Mumbai could demand independence on the same grounds. Finally, the separatists talk of how much they have sacrificed for Kashmir’s azadi. But then India’s sacrifices in men and material for Kashmir are far greater.
Another false argument in favour of azadi is that India is unnecessarily spending billions to keep Kashmir in India and will be better off without it. But let’s extend this argument a little further: Why should we spend money in the northeast? What are we getting out of it? So, let’s give azadi to the north-eastern states as well. And, while we are at it, how about throwing UP and Bihar out of the Indian Union? Aren’t these two states a huge drain on India’s resources, and dragging India down?
Ultimately, Kashmir is a question of national will. If Indians lose the will to keep Kashmir today, it won’t be long before they lose UP tomorrow and Bengal the day after.
It is therefore time that India starts ‘thinking the unthinkable’ to end Kashmiri separatism. If the case for Kashmir’s azadi rests only on numbers, then let us change the numbers in Kashmir. If this means settling people there from other parts of India, then so be it. After all, if Kashmiris have never been stopped from settling down and prospering in the rest of India, why should people from the?rest of India not be allowed to seek their fortune in Kashmir? Why should Kashmir be treated like an anthropological laboratory which must be kept insulated from outside influences? Kashmiriyat, a syncretic concept so favoured by neo-liberals, will only flower after absorbing new and diverse influences from the?rest of India!
The law forbidding non-state subjects from settling in J&K was a law made by the Dogra kings (so detested by the Kashmiris today) to protect their own interest. There is no reason why this law should not be repealed and Kashmir thrown open to every Indian — Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian — who wants to settle there. This is not an argument to dispossess the Kashmiri; rather it is to offer him a much better price for his land and his produce than he would get if Kashmir remains a no-go area for other Indians.
India should in fact offer incentives to Kashmiris who seek their fortunes in India, and other Indians who seek their fortune in Kashmir. Projects to provide greater access to and from Kashmir — the Mughal Road, railway lines, an international airport — should be speeded up. The Muzaffarabad road too should be opened up for trade, so that Indians who settle in J&K can do some direct business with Pakistan. This road will have the added advantage of making the Kashmiri trader aware of the difference between the Indian and Pakistani market. At the same time, any Kashmiri who considers Pakistan the promised land should be allowed, nay encouraged, to go and settle there; just make sure to shut the gate after they cross over.
What happened moderator? got scared? afraid of the scathing truth? cannot bear the truth like a communal free market cockroach?
Cannot bear to see people free and decide their own destiny?
Love the British and American, but hates the Mulsims, but has no courage to fight against exploitation of the poor in India, celebrates the Ambanis for amassing so much wealth. but cannot see at what cost shame and denial of food & life for ohers do people amass so much wealth.
And typically like all Hindus who do not have a sense of right and wrong and who exaggerate and lie at the smallest pretext stpo claiming that 500000 Hindus were killed in Kashmir!!! liar liar pants on fire.
Bye for ever and good riddance cock sucker of Bush and Brown
Hey some one has started posting virulent absuive posts in my name. Kindly desist.
Kindly keep the discussion to a political level.
sachin
Its so easy to cut and post a write up written by another Journalist. I dont agree with Sushant, but so what, atleast he has read and presented some views of his own. Such as change compared to the remaning intellectual pygmies on this blog, who have nothing to say, except keep on whining about “civil society” is like this blah blah blah…prashant, bharat, malay, tathagat…pygmies.
Come on stop cribing and whining, at least start reading the history of Kashmir and then learn to debate. But I really doubt you have the capability to do so…once a communal anti woman anti dalit…its difficult to change ones ways.
Dear Sushant Sareen and others of his ilk,
The Congress and the Muslim League already fulfilled a communal partition of India with the blessings of the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sardar Patel followers wanting a trifurcaiton of Jammu and Kashmir. Kashmiri people did not want to go to Pakistan and even today the POK areas are as oppresed as the Indian side. The fact that Pakistan opened fire on the Muzaffarabad protestors only goes to show that the Kashmir movement is not in their control and that Kashmiris on boh side of the fence are oppressed.
The Kashmiri Muslims do not need you to tell them about co existence, during this entire Amarnath Shrine Board controversy, how many Yatris were killed? Did you know that the communal groups in Jammu blocked the highway for 45 days? where were the Yatris and what happend to them? those who were stuck in the Valley for 45 days? where did they go? Do you know that the Muslim families looked after them, fed them and kept them at their homes? Yes the very same crazy fundamentalist Jehadi Muslims??
Did you know that the most radical land reforms that took place in the sub-continent took place in Kashmir during the 1930 and now how conveniently you say that Kashmir should be thrown open so that the people will get a good rate for their land!! what if Kashmiris do not want to sell their land. What if they do not want their land to come in the hands of big business and developers hands who can only see shopping malls and five hotels as signs of “development” – exactly what happened in the Amarnath Shrine dispute. Once you open up an area to corporate sharks and property agents, you make it into exactly another kind of Guargaon shit hole.
Instead of investing in more government schools, colleges, hospitals and waging a war to make the government more accounatble so that this public infrastructre works properly and for the people we immediately start braying like donkeys for the private sector to move in. If the government is so bad and it cannot run our basic ammenities then have to balls to stand up and shout that you are not going to pay any taxes!!
Do any of the apologists of a free market society bloggers on this site have to guts to hold the government accountable to the money it collects from us for us?? Have even a single one of these aspiring corporate honcho types desperate to become another Bill Gates or Tata, ever stepped out on the road and said, “Look Mr Minister, if you dont spend my hard earned money on better roads, clean drinking water, better cleaner air, less pollution, better hospitals, I will come and kick your butt off?” No not one of you have and those you see doing that, coming out in the open and shouting for a better and freer India – you deride as intellectual freaks!! Get a grip, its not easy to change the world, the fact that you sit and write in your blogs is because some one some where give his or her life to protect your freedom which you are taking for granted. The point is that the middle class and upper class of Indian wants all the material benefits of a developed society, but within the repressive, fascist, feudal ideologies of the past.
That is why it is scared of Dalits and Muslims, it has been reared on distillates of hatred and while Bush will keep on killing lakhs in Iraq, they will keep on debating how bad a dictator was Saddam. That is exactly how Modi kills Muslims in Gujarat (after all they burnt some sevaks)
The consumerist aspirational middle class of India has seceeded from Bharat and is desperately licking the ass of the rich, whom it fawns up and it stands up and barks excitedly like a slavish dog the moment it is thrown a bone (a promotion, bonus or a raise). The middle class role models are not those who have fought to create a better world, but only gets excited with models, sex they will never have, women they will never touch and money, more money and yet more money they will never have enough of.
He cares a shit for Kashmir, not even for the Kashmiri Hindus, all they want to do is blog. At least the civil society types went and organised a meeting – did you???
“Hey some one has started posting virulent absuive posts in my name. Kindly desist.”
I dont think so, you deserve every alphabet of it…
“Kindly keep the discussion to a political level.
sachin”
I think your reasoning is one sided and is targeting Hinduism.
I mean, offstumped doesn t support hindu exclusivity ( most hindus dont either) but your perception is distorted. While we need to undertake the task of uprooting practices that are harming our religion, just aggressive bashing is not going to help anyway.
YossBoss…I fail to understand as to why this troll Sachin is being provided a platform to vent his ire against India in general & Hindus in particular? This is IMO is taking the idea of tolerating ‘free speech’ a bit too-far! We come here to have a civilised discussion, not to be subjected to harangue, drivel, jingoistic blabbering of posters like Sachin, who with a self-ingrained mentality of holier-than-thou attitude & grandtanding & pontification thinks that (s)/he has been ordained with some kind of divine guidance as to lecture us on how to go about conducting the business of governance!
BTW, the language and attitude on display through the rantings of Sachin are symptomatic of the pseudo-sickular crowd & the members of the ‘civil society’, the latter which you have discussed in detail here.
hey tell me what happened at Chittsinghpora when Clinton came? after Sikhs were massacred and then the army killed 5 persons and said they were Pakistani Militants and then finally the local people forced the government for DNA tests (Government forensic lab) only to find out that those killed by the army were not “pakistani miltants” but local boys living right there.
Earlier last year 5 more were killed who turned out to be carpenters and a perfume seller …and one of the armed force’s personell was caught because he had stolen the cell phone of one of the people he murdered..and the list goes on…in Bihar, Manipur, AP, Orissa, Chattisgarh (Salwa Judum), Jharkhand, Nagaland..all of them are bastards, each and every one killed by the Indian armed forces are all bastards, especially the stupid women in Manipur running naked and daring the Assam Rifles to rape them. All of them are bloody traitors and need to be whipped and then gunned down, with all the bloody pseudo secular assholes who dare raise these dirty issues and expose them to the public… you are all right correct democratic, secular, peace loving everythings…
the only single point you cannot explain is why is it that despite there being so much “anti-national” violence in so many other parts of the country (i.e. Naxals etc) why has the indian army only ever been deployed for long term counter insurgency operations against only those “anti-national” movements in three states which are of minority religions?
1. Mizoram- Christian (Aizwal also has the infamous reputation of being the sole city in India which was subjected to aerial bombing by Indian Airforce!!)
2. Nagaland (Christian)
3. J&K (Muslim-since the 1907 census and till all later census Hindus only constituted 4% of J&K)
Any answers, except diatribes, serious answers any one? after all AP, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, parts of Orissa, Bihar are all seething and teeming with anti national Naxals….
I apologise for being abusive/nasty to anyone.
I will stick to politics.
opps and i forgot Punjab (Sikhs)
Sachin – your understanding of national security is poor. The 3 examples you have given are all border states where terrorism has found easy sanctuary along the porous borders. I am going to have to ask you to stick the topic at hand instead of trying to engage other readers with inflamed comments that are only tangentially related to the topic.
and we are not even talking about Kupwara, Pulwama mass rapes, I guess the women deserved it just as the Muslims did in Gujarat (for a unsubstantiated allegation)
if you cannot see the dangers of an omin potent un accountable governance, let the pseudo secularists do what they have to.
By the way…for people managing this blog- avowedly non-political, you all are surely very very political. YES VERY POLITICAL – YOU SWEAR FOR THE STATUS QUO and that my dear friends is a partisan political position (other than the anti-minority stances you take)
OK SO LETS FORGET POLITICS AND IDEOLOGY. LETS LOOK AT GOVERNMENT FIGURES:
Regarding the Kashmiri Hindu migration from the Valley. ..Jagmohan had offered them the earth (please dig out earlier news reports on that) he also promised them a cleansed valle$y emptied out of all dirty mussalmans. And how many Hindus have been massacred by the Jehadi’s (facts) and how many Kashmiri Muslims have been killed by armed forces? for the last 20 years intelligence reports made public have always declared that there are not more than 1600-2000 armed Jehadis (most of them Pakistanis) yet strangely so more than ___________ have died( does your / their maths work?)
Meanwhile once again I ask, in this entire Anti Amarnath Agitation how many Yatris died or were shot dead by blood thirsty rabid Mullahas? how many protestors were killed by the police and where? and how many truck drivers, Muslims were beaten by the protestors in Jammu during the blockade? FACTS simple statistics we dont need any analyisis,..only dirty pesudo secular facts. Will someone do this much at least?
Cheers, happy hunting.
OK SO NO MORE RANTING FROM YOUR SIDE EITHER? JUST PROVIDE THE FIGURES FOR EVEN THREE OF MY QUESTIONS? POSSIBLE? or does reality bite?? bites hard?
see you
Sachin – dude you are incoherent and completely lacking in focus. If you have a point keep it simple and straight in one sentence else hold your peace. These rants that swing wildly from mass rapes to jagmohan to amarnath dont reflect very coherent thinking.
and please dont write that Militants also do the same kind of nonsense.
REST OF THE COMMENT DELETED
BTW Yossarin:
So Indian border with Burma is a national security issue and an independent state being declared in the heartland of india is not? hmmm.
Ok fine I got your answer thanks any way.
god night.
Yossorin boss,
Let me give you an advice that Krishna gave to Arjun when faced with adversary, dont forgive and dont quit. Banning Sachin comes in the dont forgive part. When you ban him, please ban his IP so that he/she cannot use that IP with different email. He can of course use a different IP, but how many places can he access internet from?
Also if you give people like him free run in your blog, it will soon become a fish market and people will loose interest, so banning him is for a greater good (like hanging a murderer, hanging him will not bring back the dead person but it saves the future by creating a detterance, a greater ocietal good – FYI I do not support capital punishment).
rgds,
fanne
Sachin, what else and your fellow secular terrorists want? Freedom for anti-nationals, maoists (this very word implies the anti-national character, for who can forget the backstabbing of 1962), naxals, anti-socials, jehadis, crusaders to kill, rape, abduct, demand ransom, bombing of innocents, ethnic cleansing of minorities when the so called minorities in India become majority in a state? Every jehadi and anti-national terrorist want our armed forces to be demoralised. That is the real reason for their diatribe against the armed forces, which are one of the finest in the world. The Communists once declared that they will wreck the constitution from within. Yes, all these anti-Indian forces want to wreck the nation from within, may be at the behest of forces which are against the very existence of this nation.
They want all the freedom for them to kill, convert and ethnically cleanse everybody. The moment they become more than 50% they want freedom supported by such “civil right activists” or whatever nomenclature they want to describe. The very same people were mute spectators, rather supporters, for the ethnic cleansing of hindus in both Pakistan and Bangladesh (from 26% to 1.5% in Pakistan and 30% to 9.5% in Bangladesh). They want the same dispensation in India. They have already did it in Kashmir valley. Same is the case with Mizoram and Nagaland. Sachin, you accuse too much. But what is your solution. We should keep quite so that our fellow citizens is butchered by the so called freedom fighters. You want a free run for the jehadis, crusaders, naxals, maoists, terrorists and all the anti-social and anti-national forces. For the human rights activists, the rights are for the criminals, anti-social, anti-national, terrorist forces only. The moment some one is caught they start shouting from the roof top. Why don’t they shout for the victims. Why don’t they shout for the lakhs of hindus forcibly made to flee for their life from Kashmir valley. The so called Pakistan and ISI supported freedom fighters (rather terrorists) are not asking for a secular state. These terrorists supported by Pakistan and ISI are asking for “Nizam E Mustafa” an Islamic state. We know then what will happen to the minorities. We have examples in Pakistan and Bangladesh. You scream like a man possessed. Do you have any solution for the minorities ? If somebody advocates the same treatment to the minorities in India the way Pakistan and Bangladesh have done, what will be your reaction. Oh, people like you only want a one way traffic. Kill the hindus for they are the only fundamentalists on earth. For you the Jehadis and Crusaders, criminals, maoists, naxals, anti-national are the real secular, peace loving nationalist people. India should handle them with kid gloves. Better hand over India to them!!!
Benazir Bhutto said she will fight for 1000 years if she has to get kashmir, well she is gone now but she sure was a visionary and her words are prophetic. You will have to really fight for kashmir and you will have fight for next 1000 years. And, by that time, the already failed state of Pakistan will cease to exist and the west punjabis, other tribes in the area, the east Bengalis will leave evil cult and get converted back to their old indic fold because of various geo-political, social, spiritual reasons. Paganism, the name these militants have given to civilized way of life, just to justify the evil they commit is coming back to get them. Americans are already killing pakis.
@ Bharat [comment 23]
Bharat and All,
for the benefit of those who have not see these maps, here is the link to the maps that teesta had put on her website.
http://geocities.com/exposingtheaxisofevil/maps.html
Please notice India is drawn without Kashmir, Gujrat and North East. Pak is shown with gujrat and kashmir and NE is probably given to china. Though in terms of size, pak is less than a quarter of India , in these maps it is represented in an imposing fashion on India. When confronted on these maps, teesta tried to chicken out by attributing the maps to a kid of Bombay International School.
The acid test for Sachin and thinkers of his ilk: Restore the status quo ante and resettle in Kashmir all Kashmiri pandits/Hindus who are staying as refugees in Jammu and elsewhere in India.
Does he believe in peaceful co-existence of Muslim and Hindu communities?
Togadia will save us all. After all he believes Cow’s life is more sacred then human.
Togadia is a perfectly reasonable man. Moron will save us all, after all he believes nothing is sacred beyond one’s own home and hearth. Moron is Anagram for Roman
No wonder he hates The Togadia, our Christ and Savior.
Togadia should be the Culture Minister as hes a true Karmayogi. Then we can tether moron with the rest of the cows in the barn marked with the crescent and the red star for cross-semination. I am a dreamer.
Krishna was best friends with these dudes who sold their wife in a gambling match!!! you guys got it all figured out I guess.
Meanwhile let the anti national terrorist women parade themselves naked once again before our army to be raped again aand again. In fact most probably they were not even Manipuris, ISI agents anyone?
The new argument by certain new founded intellectuals,Pseudo Secularists and certain politically (chronic) biased media like CNN-IBN and NDTV etc.in India arguing that poverty and opression of minortiy community is the root cause of the Islamic Terrorism.
Being a fellow citizen of this country,I absoultely rubbish those arguments.It is again just an escapism to put the blame always on Hindu Majority.
India remains one of the poorest countries in the world today.750 Million people are in utter poverty in this country. Does it mean that all of them are terrorists or they think adapting to terrorism can take away their poverty??
Look at Pakistan, A purely Islamic nation, today that country is flooded with terrorists and extremists.Bombs are exploded there and human lives are being lost everyday. Is it because of poverty? Is it because of so called “oppression of minority there”? People should think about it.The root cause of this terrorism is Dirty politics being played in respective countries for personal gains by certain section of politicians and religious fundamentalists. Nothing else.
Pakistan initiated the terrorism for political bargaining and they will end with it because it is now out of any one’s control. “Those who live with Sword would die with it”
Contradictory, being an Islamic nation Malaysia is a good exemption why because the prosperity in that country and there development and national integrity comes first Not crooked politics.
Just by comparing Malaysia and Pakistan one could easily differentiate why terrorism sustains and why not. Even being autocratic, in certain GCC (not the whole Middle East) countries, do bomb explodes there??? Is there human lives are lost so freely and intermittently???
As long as you appease and appease a certain community for political gain this phenomenon will continue. No doubt. India is the best example.
Implement the UNIFORM CIVIL CODE and treat all citizens equally irrespective of their religion, cast, creed etc. thereby appeasement, vote bank politics, accusations of oppression, suppression etc. will stop, till then it will bleed.
That day I can say India will be a Superpower.
Pseudo Secular Congress politicians, comic politicians like Lalu, Paswan, Mulayam etc.(plenty in the list..) and Shabnam Hashmi like crooked social activists should stop abusing people of Hindu religion or the so called “Majority”.