Nitin over at the Acorn has a couple of posts on the global economic crisis. The Washington Post?poses an interesting question – Is this the end of American Capitalism as we know it ?
Many economists are asking whether it remains a free market if the government is so deeply enmeshed in the financial system.
Given that the United States has held itself up as a global economic model, the change could shift the balance of how governments around the globe conduct free enterprise. Over the past three decades, the United States led the crusade to persuade much of the world, especially developing countries, to lift the heavy hand of government from finance and industry
But the hands-off brand of capitalism in the United States is now being blamed for the easy credit that sickened the housing market and allowed a freewheeling Wall Street to create a pool of toxic investments that has infected the global financial system. Heavy intervention by the government, critics say, is further robbing Washington of the moral authority to spread the gospel of laissez-faire capitalism.
The global economic crisis reminds us of the limitations of the Western templates of Laissez Faire Capitalism or Progressive Socialism. As the pendulum swings wildly in the United States from economic freedom to historically the biggest state intervention, Offstumped would like to revisit a post from 8th June 2008 titled “Why there is no Dharma in Progressive Liberalism” ?
Often many to the Right, especially those who primarily care about economic issues, argue that Freedom is the defining principle governing the Right. In this moment of epiphany it must be said that in the natural order of things, it is Dharma or that ultimate sense of Justice which ought to be the defining principle governing the Right. For there can be no Freedom without that ultimate sense of Justice or Dharma.
Then Offstumped went on to articulate an Indian Model of Economic Development rooted in Dharma saying this
the model of economic development must essentially look to Dharma as its moral compass to guide it on which path to take. When posed with a question or a conflict or a doubt, the model must essentially look to Dharma for guidance on what is the morally conscionable choice to be made.?
The global economic crisis reminds us of the perils of exercising freedom without a moral compass.
From individuals who borrowed way beyond their means to banks that were over leveraged. The mess across the globe is a litany of irresponsible decisions by inidividuals and Institutions operating in a moral vaccum.
While more regulation and more State control seems to be a natural reaction across the globe to this mess. One must look beyond the current crisis into the future to pose the question, How different will the exercise of economic freedom be in the future ?
With many years of over bearing regulation and State control staring them in the face, laissez faire economists would do well to ponder over the moral dimension in the exercise of freedom.
While not claiming deep economic expertise, Offstumped had laid out some basic principles based on Dharma for responsible exercise of economic freedom.
to provide for the right enablers at the Local level and the right Institutions at the Central Level while being “desireless” on socio-economic outcomes.?
must not encompass specific goals and programs for the State?but it must instead focus on the processes and structures that the State needs to enable to engender ethical and fair economic activity.
to be consistent with this defining characteristic of Dharma, it must devolve to the local level all socio-economic choices.
must merely focus on that structure and processes that would empower “Local Governments” with the freedom to act based on the socio-economic choices of the “Local Community” they serve.
must end with specifying the kind of Institutions that need to be developed so that the “How”of economic activity would always be consistent with Dharma.
a regulatory authority insulated from the politics of the day (but accountable to Parliament) to ensure fair trade practices and ethical behavior in the pursuit of wealth would be an Institution consistent with Dharma. On the other hand a Government Ministry headed by a full time Politician with the power to intervene in trade practices and the power to prosecute at free will any business would be an Institution that engenders Adharma.
Offstumped invites further debate on this initial formulation as the crisis of morality in economic decisions continues to unravel markets across the globe.
Filed under: Dharma-debates, Flat World Hindutva, Lok Sabha Polls 2008-2009
This fiasco is not the result of free market capitalism !!! In a free market, the govt. wouldn’t bail out its friends like AIG, Fannie and Freddie while letting companies like Lehman bite the dust. This wink-wink nod-nod attitude is definitely not free market!!!
Also there was (and still is) this obsession with members in US Congress that anybody and everybody should own a home, American dream if you will. In this process, even a person with a crappy credit rating was able to buy a home because it was subtly “bundled” into US government rating. Here is where “quasi-govt.” (what the heck is that anyways?) leviathans like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac came into play. And of course here is where Bear and Lehman and others indulged in the worst “financial engineering”.
Of course for free market capitalism to work flawlessly, capital or money should also be “free”. Now “free” doesn’t mean you flood the market with money. However it means you let private people issue money!!! Now it isn’t as horrific as it sounds initially. I mean you have anything and everything produced by private entrepreneurs. Why not money itself?? That will also rein in government spending!!! People need to think about what money is and ought to be. The problem in US is that MONEY IS DEBT and so as long as DEBT IS ENDLESS THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE MONEY you can print. Of course when the Chinese and Japanese stop buying it, chickens will come home to roost in the form of hyperinflation.
One can argue the social aspects of a completely “free” society. But as far as economics is concerned, free market capitalism is the best. Greed is good, it brings out the best of the evolutionary spirit in you.
Folks like Fukuyama proclaimed that ‘Liberal Democracy + Free mkt capitalism’ is the pinnacle of social evolution. And I can see that that particular combination does indeed have some built in checks and balances that in some abstract sense, are ‘Dharmic’ after all.
Democracy forces govts to intervene forcefully to prevent a collapse of the finance pipelines and the credit mkts without which the common citizen and voter would suffer immensely in a catastrophic spiral of falling purchasing power due to stagnation in wage levels whereas costs rise because interest rates on all loans soar, rising unemployment due to business bankruptcies forced by lack of access to short term credit (working capital requirements), and a consequent lack of basic trust in the institutions that once speeded commerce (e.g., selling to anyone on credit, that accounts for majority of sales receipts in many sectors is beaten down because the creditworthiness of the other party becomes suspect, raising capital from either the equity route or the debt route becomes mission impossible). Bottomline, it is democracy that forced the US govt to intervene forcefully and rapidly in order to guarantee some modicum of order and stability in the lives of its citizenry. It could no longer afford to flail helplessly and do nothing like happened in the great depression.
Capitalsim in turn, puts some checks on how much govt can or should gobble up. It makes desirable the condititon that mkts are eventually best managed by players that are also not referees (like the govt certainly would have to be). The need for strong independent regulators is not at all precluded btw, pls note.
This crisis, IMHO, is a necessary one. Hopefully, things will be better and folks – sarkari, investors etc will be wiser for the experience.
@YossBoss…although I like your posts pertaining to practicing Dharma and are indeed quite enlightening, I humbly beg to differ as to their relevance in current political as well as economic scenario in India. Why? Well, first of all barring BJP, and that too not to the fullest extent, all other ‘sickular’parties, for the sake of their vote-banks, will refrain from implementing the principles you’ve enunciated, and not because they are logical, but because for them it reeks of bringing in that dreaded ‘Hindutva/Hinduism’ principles in public arena through backdoor entry! Even BJP, given the fact that unless & until it obtains an absolute majority, will be vary of implementing the Dharma principles you refer to, and more so not to antagonize its coalition partners, many of whom IMO are not much different from parties across the aisle given their stance on sicularism, I find it hard to imagine that these points will be implemented sooner than later, btw, when unfortunately nothing would have been left to save!
Shouldn’t the primary objective be of getting BJP, with absolute majority into power and then enunciating these principles of matter of polity n governance for the reference of the ruling establishment?
Lets be pragmatic, unless n until the only party – BJP, which gives voice to Hindu majority of this nation, wins the electoral mandate and then refer to these governing principles you’ve outlined in this as well previous other posts, they will remain just principles and will never see the action of the day!
Dow down a 1000 pts in 1st 2 minutes of trading!
“It’s the end of the world as we know it” REM
We are all socialists now, comrade.
Arvind,, hits on target.
Root of problem was “Everyone should have house in USA” was made as a fundamental human rights issue by Clinton administration. It was Bush who realized the mess and only solution he had was to make american spend and defer recession.
Free market economy is solution to poverty and bring best out of people and institution.
Can somebody enlighten me here on the broader definition of “Dharma”? I know in sanskrit, this word has much more meaning than just religious connotation. But the word dharma equates to religion in most of its colloquial usage.
Also when Yossarin says that we need to turn to dharma as a guiding moral compass in any moral dilemma, I believe it necessarily doesn’t always mean referring to religious scriptures, is it? I mean most of our vedic literature and Upanishidas do not speak from a religious point of view. But the middle ages have seen ample religious dogma and rise of superstitions.
I am assuming that we are referring to the concept of dharma as it was born 3000 years back and applying it (at times by suitably modifying it ) to the present day context.
Any thoughts on this?
Rationalist:
From what I have read, Dharma means righteous behaviour.
eg. Not killing and eating any animal is Dharma. Every animal feels the same pain, and it is as cruel to kill a pig as it is to kill other animals, for example. (Mentioning just one of the justifications for not eating animals; yes, there are others).
Saying you can kill these animals (cow, goat, sheep) and not the pig is “religion”: morality based on dictates of some “God”.
Dharmic statements are independent of what Krishna says (though He says things to reinforce Dharmic statements). Dharma is translated as “religion” in English, but that is a poor and narrow translation that makes Dharma look sectarian and confers on “religion” an undeserved universality.
Rationalist #6
Dharma cannot be translated into the present context of western thought that dominates modern discourse.
However it is the definition of Indic polity, which India lost in recent centuries, therefore – any attempt to define it would be reconstruction and speculation.
“Freedom”, can be defined along three mutually exclusive but interdependent parameters: Political, Economical and Personal. In any organized society – these “freedoms” can often be restricted by functions that have a tendency to usurp powers. The corresponding functions are, Administrative/Military, Trade/Monetary, Philosophical/Theological.
At the root of Indic polity were embedded rules that would limit the privileges of these functions. Without these limits, these positions would lend themselves to abuse and misappropriation of power.
While representatives in each of these three functional categories have a potential to misuse their power, the abuse gets worse when two or more of these groups connive under the pretext of collaboration. Historically in India, traditions and precedence served as a broad charter that would restrict their powers at many levels. This implicitly served as the Indic Constitution – that can be broadly defined as “DHARMA.”
Western history is replete with examples of one or more of these functions grossly abusing their powers. At one point, the Roman Catholic Church not only had its own army, it also connived with mercantile interests. This represented the conglomeration of all three sources of power in the hands of a few. Protestantism emerged as a form of rejecting papal authority and doctrine.
Learning from these lessons, the founders of the United States of America, separated the powers of the church and the state in the American Constitution. While this concept was an important first step for Western civilisation, Indic thought was not only rooted in these ideals, Dharma was the polity in how these three freedoms were ensured for its subjects. The creation of the Federal reserve eliminated one such freedom.
Tatya Tope and other leaders made a five point proclamation on August 25, 1857 – that emphasized all three attributes of freedom. The manifesto urged the people to help them fight the English to secure political freedom, so that the people could earn economic and personal freedom.
(You can find more details in an upcoming book, Tatya Tope’s Operation Red Lotus by Parag Tope and the Tope family, Rupa and Co.)
BTW,
VHP, BD etc file case against Bhajji for dancing as Ravana
Another brilliant post. Congratulations to Offstumped for bringing such interesting issues. For one thing, they make the readers, at least me, think it over again and again. Here I would like to raise another question. Can we restart the discussion on Integral Humanism again. Find some clues in to look for some economic model, though it has more to offer from social issues. Could it be a way to bring out policies closer to the path laid out by Dharma?
Thanks Ashish and Galeo Rhinus. Ashish has rightly pointed out the difference by giving an example on animal killings. Going by that example, then all animal killings should stop, not just cow slaughtering.
But I believe people should have freedom to choose their meat. It will take a while before people will stop eating meat.
@ 9. I don’t understand why VHP and BD are making a big issue out of this just as Akal Takht is doing?
I need to hear something more concrete and logical than just the banal “hurting religious sentiments”.
On the Bhajji/Ravana issue:
Apparently Bhajji acted as Ravana and Mona Singh acted as Sita and both of the did a duet together. The jathedar objected to this saying that a Sikh cannot hurt the sentiments of Hindus. Looks like the VHP/BD is filing a case on this issue. As usual the media is not giving the full information.
@Ashish,
A few years ago I found out that this notion of vegetarianism in Hinduism is quite bogus.
I myself am vegetarian because I am against animal cruelty (which i gues is part of Hinduism) but Hindu dharma is not emphatic about this. Vegetarianism is preffered but meat eating is NOT condemned. What is condemned is cruelty towards animals. It was towards this that Guru Gobind Singh created teh concept of Jhatka. For those in his armies who could not do away with meat eating, they shoudl eat only Jhatka meat.
Likewise if you go through the authentic scripts, you will find varying opinions. Yagnovalkya was a meat eater as were Rama and the Pandavas. Meat eating is described as situational. You eat when you need and aviod when you have a choice. Greed and torture of animals is forbidden. And as I said, vegetarianism is preferred for enlightenment.
We have to be very careful when we go around creating dogma where none exists.
“We are all socialists now, comrade.”
Why should DOW falling make us socialists exactly? This is the stupidity with which some Indians act. When market is going up everybody who is anybody is happy and can’t wait to get in, but when it falls it is the evil speculators. Yeah right. How stupid is that? Market cannot keep going up forever, it has to fall sometimes, DHARMA dictates it!!!
By the way # 6 Dharma means natural law or principles of natural justice if you will. At least that’s my interpretation.
“We have to be very careful when we go around creating dogma where none exists.”
Aha but religion itself is dogmatic. So that means Hinduism is not even a religion. If not then what is it? I don’t know, maybe Y can do an article on that.
“Bottomline, it is democracy that forced the US govt to intervene forcefully and rapidly in order to guarantee some modicum of order and stability in the lives of its citizenry. It could no longer afford to flail helplessly and do nothing like happened in the great depression.”
So US was not democratic during great depression? Government never solves any problem, they always only compound the problem. By the way, Roosevelt’s stupid New Deal policies (including the idiotic Smoot Hawley Act) converted what should have been at max a 2 year recession into a prolonged 14 year depression!!! Yeah, way to go for sure!!!
The Only DHARMA that any government should exercise is of providing free education & Health facilities, rest let the market forces take their on course, of course regulatory steps are an essential duty of the Administration, but should be limited to check & balance.
:”The Only DHARMA that any government should exercise is of providing free education & Health facilities”
Nope, definitely not, even in these cases market does a better job. And if these are free then someone would also ask for free housing. Then free food. Then all sorts of freebies. There is no end to it.
But even if some ppl decide to have the govt. in healthcare or education (which is a terrible idea) it should definitely be the state (and if possible even more local) govts. DEFINITELY not UNDER the highly CORRUPT and INEFFICIENT central government!!!
A bit OT, but relevent nonetheless:
A bad trip in India
Hebrew signs in northern India. Most Israelis ignore the locals’ needs and feelings, treat them and their traditions with contempt and regard the Israeli enclaves as playgrounds where they can do almost anything they desire.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=412551&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Guess…we Indians are too accomodating…;) take our belief in that old adage “Atithi Devo Bhav” to absurd heights!
(Courtesy: B Shantanu’s blog)
Hi All,
Just watch this guys: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAOTKCHY30
Man Modiji is unbelievable man. He is par excellence.
@ Nishka:
Nowhere have I said that vegetarianism is Hinduism!! I used it as an illustration of Dharma, or righteousness.
I too gave up meat because of the cruelty aspect, and also the inefficiency aspect. And there are medical reasons too, especially for the west where they “farm” meat and pump animals with lots of things. About Hinduism per se: Yes, meat eating was done at times, but Hinduism has praises for those who have eaten meat and then give it up (Bheeshmauvacha, I think, we had a long discussion on this in India-Forum, which has a lot of knowledgeable people). Also, Thirukural in no uncertain terms admonishes meat eaters.
My family eats meat, I just dont. Nobody bothers anyone about their diet..no dogma here!!
Basic Education & Healthcare are compassionate humanitarian aspects of a “Dharmic” society, as was the practice of our ancient sages who freely parted with ‘vidya’ & medicines, these were accepted norms in India..until….
Read ‘Dharmic society’ as the ‘Upanishadic Age’
@Sootradhar,
Not at all surprised. Indians don’t know much about Judaism but the rest of the world does. All these semitic faiths are the same. I can tell you that Islam is the best of the three (yes I know you will holler etc). If you read the scriptures -Talmud – only Jews are chosen people, everyone if Gentile (old testament is full of horrors – read about the agatites and races that were killed). Christianity was a slight improvement (atleast you can conveert, the so called Jesus liked the poor, but it supports slavery just like the old testament, had inquisitions etc and destoyed much better civilizations). Islam is the most egalitarian of the three (It has it’s problems, the ones we are facing). Of all the three semetic faiths if it was anything else than Islam, Hinduism would have been totally wiped out (not that Islam is compassionate but it is the lesser of the three devils).
The dharmas (diff between religion and dharma) of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism adn Sikhism are will dharmas
@Nishka
Thanx for that viewpoint too you put forward! Yeah, I know…all these three semetic religions spout from the same groundswell..so no surprise here the contemptuous attitude displayed by the Israeli tourists towards the ‘dirty-filthy’ native populace. I also know about Jews, perceiving themselves as the chosen people…makes you wonder as to whether the Gentiles had any right to live in the first place on this earth!
But this article is more relevent in bringing up the fact that the only nation in the world where Jews were never discriminated against…the natives of that nation are subjected to this kind of treatment @ the hands of the ‘chosen people of god’…makes one wonder as to what kind of f*****-** god would that be…LOL! (YossBoss, apologies in advance for using the f-word!)
“Basic Education & Healthcare are compassionate humanitarian aspects of a “Dharmic” society, as was the practice of our ancient sages who freely parted with ‘vidya’ & medicines”
Yeah but these were voluntary charitable and philanthropic things. They are not a function of the State. The last thing India needs is a welfare nanny state. It has had enough of that.
“All these semitic faiths are the same”
No they are not. Plus the article in Haaretz notwithstanding there are many Jews who like India. Plus the state of Israel has been India’s one of the best allies even though our India officially recognized Israel only in 1992 because of the stupidity of its earlier leaders. So puhhhhhhleassssssse don’t equate Judaism or Jews with anything least of all Islam.
#14 arvind
Okay, you are reading way too much in on line. First of all, I was talking about the US/west bozo not India. I had the trillion dollar bailout in mind, not anything India. so genius next time you want to rant about something, try to understand what is being said, before commenting on one line and seeming like a moron. I’m not FOR socialism, I’m all for capitalism, but a trillion dollar bailout, and thats just a start, sounds awfully like socialism to me my friend, but we can all drew our own conclusions, its a free f***ing country
“Of all the three semetic faiths if it was anything else than Islam, Hinduism would have been totally wiped out (not that Islam is compassionate but it is the lesser of the three devils).”
Yeah sure, now I want to puke!!! Tell me one single instance by Jews or Jewish rulers comparable to rape, destruction of hundreds of temples and plunder that took place during the Muslim invasion.
Hinduism survived because of the grit of its people and because Hinduism is more than a religion as I said before (though people are still trying to figure out what it is). Anyone saying otherwise is b***sh***ing.
“I’m all for capitalism, but a trillion dollar bailout,”
But u talked about DOW not bailout. And you are the one writing one liners moron.
arvind
I think the exchange speaks for itself
I’m just glad there wasnt a socialistic dissertation thrown in about the REM song line.
My 2paisa re Jews:
We as Hindus need to keep Jews as our friends. Whatever their holy books etc say, please please remember: Hindus will not have as genuine a friendship with any country as it has with the Jewish State. Hindu-Jew cooperation is going great at the moment. The 2nd Hindu-Jewish conference in Jerusalem (February 2008) resolved that the swastik as Hindus use it is not antisemitic. Jewish people are very reasonable in these matters. I have Jewish friends from Israel (on teh net) that apologize for the behaviour of their young generation and will talk to them. Yes, I am a native of Goa, and when I go visit my native place, I can see what commercialization young israelis have brought with them. Disgusting, but to be treated as a dispute amongst friends..
One thing that binds two religion is none convert people from any other religion. So you can live besides a jew without he/she being a threat to your religion.
Exactly. Plus both are old civilizations. And also, they are suffering from islamic terrorism just as we are; and they definitely have their fundas clear when it comes to dealing with islamic terror!
An interview of NaMo worth reading:
Raise Nano like Yashoda’s Krishna: Narendra Modi
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Raise_Nano_like_Yashodas_Krishna_Narendra_Modi/articleshow/3582270.cms
Well the funny thing is that Jews have sufferred less from Muslims and more from Christians. As a jewish friends puts it the difference between the approach of these two people are the muslims wants to kill the jews now, the christian would want to kill them later to prepare for the final coming of its Mesiah. Though Chrstian faith has reformed much, but then anti-semitism just hides under the skin.
While 6 million jes died only 70 years ago at hands of christian (Nazis), 2.5 million Hindus died in 1971 at hand of muslims. These two religion can come together and help each other while helping themselves.
Thanks,
I also agree with the viewpoint put forward by many posters subsequent to Nishka’s & my response to the Haartz article…what pained me specifically was the attitude of the Israeli tourists towards their hosts…esp in view of the facts that majority inhabitants of both the countries (India & Israel) are facing similar issues in their day-to-day lives eg radical Islamists, surrounded by failed or radical states, and last but not the least – the host nation in this case was/is the ONLY place in the world where Jews were never-ever discrimnated against!
Clashes break out in MP, three killed
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Clashes_break_out_in_MP_three_killed/articleshow/3582377.cms
BHOPAL: Three people were killed and at least 20 injured in Hindu-Muslim
riots at Burhanpur town in south Madhya Pradesh on Friday. The district
administration clamped curfew on the town and issued shoot-at-sight orders to bring the situation under control.
>>>
WTH? Is there something more than what meets the eye? Esp in regards to the fact that elections are due in MP & other states in the coming months!
Sootradhar sir,
Your points are valid, to seek someones help you do not have to be their slave. Otherwise what’s wrong with muslim or Christian slavery.
Yoss:
A great post!
Here are a few frightening stats about the magnitude of US economic woes that realy do not get discussed to their fullest:
The total US Government obligations are about $53-60 trillion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_national_debt).
Out of this, about 15 Trillion is Debt (borrowings) and about 41 trillion is the Net Present Value of “future unfunded obligations” (“this is the amount that would have to be set aside during 2008 such that the principal and interest would pay for the unfunded commitments through 2082. Approximately $7 trillion relates to Social Security, while $34 trillion relates to Medicare and Medicaid.”
While the “Future unfunded obligations” do not incur current interest payments they imply that unless US comes up with that money now, it will have to borrow it in the future or reduce it obligations (meaning delays in qualifying age for social security AND reduction in the social security benefits as well as “take a Tylenon and don’t call me in the morning” approach to medicare / medicaid programs.
Focusing just on the US government borrowings of about $15T (including recent financial socialism that the US Government has engaged in). For a population of about 300 million, this is about $50,000/US citizen. But since kids do not pay taxes, it is really $100,000/tax payer. These borrowing actually have inetrest payments on them at say 4% (a close enough guesstimate for historic average). That amounts to $4000/tax payer in interest payment alone.
Now, the actual savings rate of US consumers is (take a wild guess & you will still be wrong) a whopping negative 1/2 % (yes, -0.5%) (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/07/business/main1293943.shtml). Thus, there is no realistic potential for paying for this debt thr’ additional taxes. That means $4,000 of EXISTING taxexs of each individual go toward paying interest alone on the $15T national debt. And we are not even talking about paying the $15T principal AND future obligations of $45T.
Add to this the fact that US is borriwng an additional $500B/year and cannot even beging to balance the budget in the most optimistic scenarios for the next 4-6 years (adding another $2-3T to the national debt.
So, the real questions is when will the rest of the world call USA’s bluff and stop lending it more money? The day when “American Dream” becomes “American Nightmare” may not be more than 10 year out.
Guys,
As Chanakya said – there are no friendships between civilizations, just partnerships.
Let us not be swept away with Hindu – Jewish bhai bhai and later get stabbed in the back. Let us be vigilent.
I’ll go into the history of it later.
Arvind, go ahead and puke
For all those who freaked out
- India should be friends with everyone as long as it serves our interest
- Please read the history of the Jews before we say they did not commit mass muder – However, this was before the birth of christ. After the ROman church, the Jews were subject to inhuman brutalities and genocide at the hands of the church. The Nazi holocaust was not the only incident, they were subjected to inquisition after inquisition and real discrimination (even in the US till the end of the 19th century). This is why they prbably try to secure themselves as much as possible, by owning assets etc
- Yes the Jews suffered much less under the Muslims than the Christians. The christians spared noone
- However, why did the Jews not pause before exploiting India, the only country that welcomed them and did not discriminate? For all those who don’t know when this happened, please go down history. The cleverest exploiters are teh ones where you don’t even know that they are exploiting you
- Therefore, I beleive we need to be careful. We shoudl be friends but we should not get lost in a mush of emotions
One way to control these dogmatic versions of Islam and Christianity is to curb the religious heads who instigate common people against Indian majority. If Indian governemnt can monitor traitorous moulvis and church pastors who get foreign funds to spread hatred. The job is 99% done. It is only because our government and Intelligence agencies failure to monitor the activities and atrocities of these organizational heads, India is facing a threat. We should form a federal agency that tracks what every Moulvi and pastor does, where he gets his funds from, what kind of stuff he delivers in his speech at the congregation. It is possible with local support, recording of speeches, rewards for informers and strict punishments for traitors. Only a nationalist government can do this. This policy will remove the fangs of the terror cults of Islam and Christianity. This will kill terrorism and bring the number of terrorists produced significantly down. Without doing something like this we are going after individual ground workers who are nothing but mere pawns taking commands from terror authorities (Moulvis, Mullahs and Missionaries)
“Yeah but these were voluntary charitable and philanthropic things. They are not a function of the State. The last thing India needs is a welfare nanny state. It has had enough of that.”
—If welfare is not a function of the State, then i propose to dissolve the State.
@ Ram Jan
That sounds like Germany under Hitler, or Russia under Stalin.
Niskha:
Jews have not done anything to us. And that too after we did not even recognize them under Chacha’s policies. No one is geting dogmatic or getting into a mush of emotions.
How have the Jews “exploited” India?
Also, when did the Jews commit “mass murder”? There are many early christian claims of Jews killing them, but modern scholarship is proving that these claims were mostly false, and used to claim victimhood. The verdict is still out. I mean, Romans through their court historians made the messianic Jews believe in a made-up “Jesus”, a character whose “life” was jsut an embellished story of the campaign of CaesarTitus, who was sent by his father, Caesar Vespasian. The similarities between the lives of Titus and “Jesus” (whose myth appeared years after Titus withdrew from the scene), and that too similarities in chronological order, and those could have arisen independently by only a 0.0000001% chance. “Jesus” was a cruel Roman joke.
http://www.caesarsmessiah.com
No wonder people do not find evidence for “Jesus”
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
Against this backdrop, I do not really trust antisemitic stories.
Please read the old testament. The jews themselves claim that a lot of it is history.
Also go into persian History and you will learn more
Additionally, do explore what and who the east India company really was.
@Ram Jan,
Very extreme response. Trust me I feel that way sometimes when I see what has happened in Kashmir but that is not a pragmatic response.
@Folks,
I am not saying someone is good or bad. It’s just that we Indians should take actions that will be a win-win for us in the long run. We have been stabbed so many times by so called friends that we should have learnt by now.
Something about Indian Jews – Judaism passes through the mother while the Jewish caste passes through father
Who Are The Jews of India, And What Are Their Origins?
India has a legacy of four distinct Jewish groups: the Bene Israel, the Cochin Jews, the Sephardic Jews from Europe, and the “Baghdadis” from Iraq. Each group practiced important elements of Judaism and had active synagogues. The Sephardic rites predominate among Indian Jews.
One of the most important Jewish peoples of India are the Bene Israel (“Sons of Israel”), whose main population centers were Bombay, Calcutta, Old Delhi, and Ahmadabad. The native language of the Bene Israel was Marathi, while the Cochin Jews of southern India spoke Malayalam.
The Bene Israel claim to be descended from Jews who escaped persecution in Galilee in the 2nd century BCE. The Bene Israel resemble the non-Jewish Maratha people in appearance and customs, which indicates intermarriage between Jews and Indians. However, the Bene Israel maintained the practices of Jewish dietary laws, circumcision, and observation of Sabbath as a day of rest.
The Bene Israel say their ancestors were oil pressers in the Galil and they are descended from survivors of a shipwreck. In the 18th Century they were “discovered” by traders from Baghdad. At that time the Bnei Israel were practicing just a few outward forms of Judaism (which is how they were recognised) but had no scholars of their own. Teachers from Baghdad and Cochin taught them mainstream Judaism in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Jewish merchants from Europe travelled to India in the medieval period for purposes of trade, but it is not clear whether they formed permanent settlements in south Asia. Our first reliable evidence of Jews living in India comes from the early 11th century. It is certain that the first Jewish settlements were centered along the western coast. Abraham ibn Daud’s 12th century reference to Jews of India is unfortunately vague, and we do not have further references to Indian Jews until several centuries later.
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/fa
Ashish
“-No wonder people do not find evidence for “Jesus”
— be worthy enough to find the evidence deep within your heart,
Indian
Are you present?
“The cleverest exploiters are teh ones where you don’t even know that they are exploiting you”
Yeah sure very nice logic. By the way I am fine with those kind of “exploiters” because they seem to be “exploiting” only in your warped frame of view. Of course, I agree with the realist school of thought that in foreign policy only national interest matters. But that national interest also has to “stand for something” otherwise it will be a sham and people won’t have faith in you.
nice article by Tarun Vijay on Assam violence..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Columnists/Tarun_Vijay_A_secular_protocol/articleshow/3584631.cms
kudos to Chiru party for joing pseudo-secular gang.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/No_tie-up_with_BJP_TDP_Chirus_party/articleshow/3584276.cms
The only solution is The HINDUS must unite at all costs cutting across the caste system, abolishing it entirely. There should be intellectuals who will ensure the “internal health” of our culture. Make the necessary reforms consistent with scientific point of view and external organizations that will protect the assaults on our culture.
Good article on Christian violence in India
http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column179.htm
“The dollar is our currency but it is your problem”
—John Connolly, US Treasury Secretary told Europeans when the Bretton Woods framwork of redeeming dollar for gold collapsed.
A similar fate awaits the suckers who hold trillions of dollars of US debt. Who are those suckers? Well a big one is China. If the US goes into a deep prolonged recession, China will be pretty hard. Expect political upheavals in China. Of course, India is partly a sucker too with a current account surplus of $300, 000, 000, 000 a lot of which is parked in US Treasuries but India aint that much of a sucker because atleast it has a significant trade deficit that needs some financing, China doesn’t even have that!!!
First Law of Economics
“If you owe $1000 you owe the bank
If you owe $1,000,000,000,000 you own the bloody bank!!!”
Aan Insaan:
For a conceptual, non-exclusive Jesus, yes. But for all the exclusivist baggage that has always come with Jesus, no. Hindus have no problem accepting any form of God. But a one-way form, no.
Nishka:
Whatever.
@ Nishka
Christian violence, muslim violence, hindu violence
Why dont we avoid these terms? They are extremely hurtful and dont forget a lot of people from other communties too read stuff on the internet – as you know when anyone refers to ‘hindu violence’ here.
It would be better to term it extermist chrisitian / muslim / hndu violence — the average hindu or muslim or chsitian is hardly violent.
@ramu
Extremists in Islam and Christianity are easily finding support from their respective religions. There is nothing called Hindu extremism. There is only Hindu reaction to hatred spewed against them by taking undue advantage of the tolerant and “sab chaltaa hai” nature.Few non extremist Christians and Muslims. I dont know if there are any still left because their co-religionists will eliminate such people first, instead of talking in their family and friends circles about bull shit thats told in mosques and churches against other humans come and preach to perfectly sane and sober Hindus about dialog etiquette, human values and peace.
If you feel extremists in your community are doing a great disservice to so called moderates go and start a blog or channel to ostracize them and spread real message. I have never seen a Muslim or Christian who had guts to do such a thing against their extremist co-religionists. You are the ones who are not doing anything and when Hindus react to the intolerant bestial violence by fellow Indians, moderates who just kept watching doing nothing will bear the brunt. Looks like you know very well about Nazis and stalin go and read to know who got eliminated first in their regimes. Your act of crying foul against Indian majority is sophisticated but the way you chicken out in front of intolerant extremists from your co-religion is much more better.
This is OT, not about the Dharma debate.
I think there is going to be an important development with the shifting of Nano to Modi’s land. Media has started giving a long overdue credit to Modi for the excellent governance model that he has provided. Sample this excerpt from the ET article:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Modis_friend_drove_Nano_out_CPM/articleshow/3582268.cms
The CPM, which is wary of the power of “brand Modi” – which has in it elements of strong Hindutva, incorruptibility, efficiency and audacity – has reasons to be worried as there is a growing recognition for his governance paradigm. In the last assembly election, Mr Modi had shown that he could make a bigger career beating the “secularists”.
“Additionally, do explore what and who the east India company really was”
Are you blaming the entire Jewish community because some Jews might have had a stake in East India Company and that too for purely financial reasons. Wow, even for you, that’s a bit of a stretch lol.
What next? A quote from Protocols of Elders of Zion? Or something to the effect that Holocaust did not even happen like Ahmadinejad says?
Tarun Vijay’s latest TOI article is par excellence.
Must read by all dharmics, folks! Pls ensure wider circulation also!
a secular protocol
Wow.
Tarun Vijay simply hit it outta the ballpark. Nothing new in what he said, well known to oldtimers on the more ‘sociological’ threads here. But its about how he said it. The articulation, the ‘narrative’ is zimbly compelling. The general thrust (and heck, even the specific facts) are too well known to be dismissed so easily. This is a piece that merits much wider circulation.
Sure, I can almost see some super-enlightened highbrows land in holding their noses, and deriding the ‘revivalist’ armchair yindooo nationalist subset here. Each to his/her own, I guess.
But the questions TV raises aren’t going away in a hurry. Things are marching towards some end-game. Denial, diversion and derision are no longer viable options for the psec brigade, even if they were fashionable till a few yrs ago.
Hey, no offense intended to anyone. Std disclaimers hold. Have a nice day, all.
It is a fantastic article but I beg to differ with him on two social issues that have been mentioned towards the end of the column. Legalizing live-in relations and homosexuality. I think it is time we renounce our dogmatic and orthodox concepts about these issues, and instead view them in the light of science.
“Legalizing live-in relations and homosexuality.”
What does legalizing mean? If it means not considered illegal I’m all for it but that should between the local society and the person. If it means handouts in the name of “disadvantaged minority”, sorry nope can’t accept that. NO MORE UNNECESSARY HANDOUTS OF TAXPAYER MONEY!!!
tHE SENTENCE should read “If it means not considered illegal I’m all for it but anything more than that should be decided between the local society and the person”
Lol.. Arvind, of course I never meant that to be another excuse used by Congis and Commis to create another votebank of homosexuals. I think legalization should be brought in from the social perspective based on democratic principles and not out of the desire to achieve political mileage.
“….but anything more than that should be decided between the local society and the person”
This will give some elements in the society a freehand in discriminating against gays and live-in couples.
A legislation will at least act as a deterrent against their persecution.
Btw, I had read somewhere on the web that our ancient culture had more realistic attitude towards these issues, especially homosexuality.
@ Rationalist
Local society often hangs widows who want to remarry, beats up couples on Valentines day, and so on. Agree, local societies are often not the smartest in dealing with larger issues, they often want the status quo above anything else.
@ Ram jan
If you only talk to people who support you – but a lot of non Hindus blame SOME hindu elements for violence, trouble and murders. There is probably no support in Hndu religion for the violence on innocents, but there is a fringe which does it. Arguably this fringe is much smaller than the lunatic fringe in the Muslim community, but its there.
Using phrases like Muslim violence implicates everyone, and will surely make it acceptable in the ‘pseudo-secular’ media to use the words Hindu violence and Hindu rapes tomorrow.
Lets stay away a bit from generalizations like that? It sounds like a Palin mob, to be honest. Or a mad crowd that screams “infidel” in response to some mulla.
And like I said before, this blog can go a long way in hardening attitudes on all sides if people who disagree with you read it. Yoss, A way in which you can restrict this to BJP supporters only?
(Even some of them would gulp if they see the generalizations here.)
In fact, this is good anti-BJP material for me. Some comments here, printed out on a piece paper, is a perfect way to disgust decent Hindus and make them never vote for BJP. I have used it as a successful strategy already
I have right-winger friends who refuse to look at this blog because some commenters reminds them of the mad, angry, racist Republican rednecks.
In that context, I believe a smart Hindu should be a bit more like Yoss than the commenters. Dharma and justice and all, leave the anger to the street and condemn it always.
Leave things unsaid, like McCain or Bush
‘I have used it as a successful strategy already ‘
some guys love to live in their delusion, not only are these specimen irreparable but unbearable too, yet, it’s good overall as they strengthen our ‘tolerance’ so let them be!
“the mad, angry, racist -christian -Republican rednecks.”
“like the – crusading- McCain or Bush “
@ Aam insaan
Agree with you on the last two lines.
BTW, I suppose you are in US – have you noticed how the McCain campaign gets angrier and the undecided voters look at that and switch over to the Obama camp? Thats how this blog works. It gets the supporters more solid and agitated about stuff, but it gets the undecideds scared.
@ramu
Well this is the exact denial state every Indian of minority community has to come out of as soon as possible. This denial of ground reality is the result of minorities taking majority for granted. There is no religion in this argument as Hindus are not united by religion or a book like others. It is just about majority who are frustrated by minorities that have taken them for granted and misused the freedom and hospitality provided to them. BD or VHP are just names, the social reaction to misuse of granted freedom would still be there even without any of them. Your act of drawing conclusions by looking at various blogs, discerning psyches of commentators, printing and showing material to some more people in your circle etc wont do anything to change the reality on the ground. People from your communities are being brainwashed to be unscrupulously violent towards the larger section of Indian population. Work on that. No matter how shrewd you and media are in presenting a cute chubby baby picture of your otherwise violent and dogmatic acts, the future will depend only on the things that have happened and continue to happen on the ground.
Political correctness and secular values are already being put aside by European public when handling Muslims. And Western nation immediately ask for tax exemptions to be canceled to churches if they start meddling with politics. What church did to people economically and politically is still remembered by most of the Europeans and thats the reason why church is seeking neo-converts so that it can continue with its villainous ways. In present financial crisis, even though I am not sure what all businesses churches are involved in, I hope we will see severe shortage of funding for its vicious activities in Asia and the little money they get goes to running schools and hospitals without spreading hatred towards fellow humans.
It was good to read everyone fighting it out here
If it were in a real debate, I would have sponsored a free cold drink to all you guys!!!
Chill!
Ramu
I agree- with regards to America, but in context to India- let me rephrase it for you:
‘- have YOU noticed how the Masses in India are getting angrier and the undecided (& may I add the apprehensive ones (of BJP) ) voters look aghast at the present impotent political scenario and are switching over to the BJP camp?
That’s how this blog works. It gets the supporters some minute solace, sense of hope & security to their agitated minds about the horrifying stuff that they are experiencing since the last six months or so, AND it’s also getting the undecideds scared ones to it’s fold.’
Ashish
Jesus as in Reality IS non-exclusive, all-encompassing & Universal—It’s the ‘conceptual’ Jesus that is a fake one & comes with all the exclusivist baggage…..
INLD rejoins NDA, to contest polls together
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/12inld.htm
Modi advises Buddhadeb, Mamata on industrialisation
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/politics/modi-advises-buddhadeb-mamata-on-industrialisation_100106417.html
Aam Insaan:
In that case I believe in him and and body more out there, as will most Hindus. All this history stuff is to give HIndus an answer to the missionaries who go around saying that Jesus is Lord, and ifyou dont acceot him *and* wipe out all traces of HIndu religion, you will go to hell, so better convert, and then secede, Hindus have all-encompassing, non-exclusive and universal religion for centuries, and if there are no traces of “me only” in any figure, they will accept him. However, the Church does not, most emphatically does not, believe in the “jesus is one of the many” theory, hence the war on that idea. THat way we have many latter day sadhus who have all been “witnessed” doing miracles. How reliably, I don’t know, but all these are closer in history than jesus. Add one to them… Why should white guy’s witnesses (that too with a lot of doubt from researchers) be more reliable than HIndus? Why should this one sadhu jesus get to claim exclusive rights? That is the question HIndus have, and they are right. No problem accepting that a “jesus” existed, but as soon as he is attributed all this “I am the only way” stuff, we will all fight back. And believe me, we can destroy christianity if they dont relent. Ball is on their court. Stop converting, and I stop. If not, I will finish off the idea of an “I am the only way” jesus.
@Ramu,
don’t have a free play in using monetary inducements and coercion to convert (recently in a Kerela plantation, laborers were threatened with job eviction if they did not convert. Likewise, with other creeds. Can you imagine if at schools in UK and US hindus were to start preaching that Christianity is evil etc, or make medical care in Africa conditional upon conversion. This is the hypocrisy of the west that always galls me. They want all the freedom but will not give others that. Case in point is how the US condemned the Asian economies when the latter tried to prevent an economic slide by putting checks and balances. Of course, now no one dare say anything
You are right about the “Rethug” analogy. That is a trap we should not allow ourselves to slip into. Then everyone becomes an enemy.
We need to create an environment where people cannot relapse into extremist dogma. i.e., Christian extremists
The problem is that we do not have these checks and balances in our system and a reaction often manifests in misdirected violence i.e., innocent christians got killed in Orissa when the perpetrators were the the World Vision missionaries and god knows who else who are roaming free.
The other problem is that we don’t have the law enforcement trcuture in place.
@Aam Insaan,
You need to stop poaching Hindu concepts to make Xianity more palatable. What you are stating are vedic concepts, nowhere in the new testament or any of the gospels. I see a lot of Christians twisting and turning them by poaching Hindu concepts of a universal Brahman etc.
@arvind,
Never quite figured out why Chacha did not recognize Israel, esp. since Edwina his amour was one
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